Rules for 11 January 2005

The Rules for Tuesday, January 11, 2005

Forwarded Tengoku acolyte¹s

One of the people on the Socal list posted this.

I have a rules question about Tengoku acolyte¹s ability which reads, ³ Reaction: After a Dragon Creature enters play: Once per turn, gain 2 Honor. You may search your Fate deck for a Tengoku Acolyte, show it, and put it in your hand. ²

Compare this to ³Reaction: During your end phase, if you¹ve brought no Gold Producing Holdings into play this turn, bow your stronghold to search your deck, then face-down provinces, for this card. Put the first gifts and favors you find into play bowed and shuffle your deck. If you find none, you lose the game.²

Okay.

Tengoku Acolyte says "a Tengoku Acolyte". Any one at all.

Gifts and Favors says "this card". This physical object.

They're different.

Gifts and Favors implicitly allows its own use while out of play by telling you to search for it in places that are out of play (then tells you to play the first one you find, as there is no way to signify which one was actually used). Tengoku Acolyte does not.

Moto Ogedei & chi penalty tokens

So, I'm still waiting on a ruling of how Tsukimi exp interacts with negating a chi penalty from a token.

I never saw the original question.

Was the question, "Does she negate it entirely, or just for the current turn, then the penalty happens anyway if its source still exists?" If so, the answer is "the former".

Saori, Balance in Nothingness & The Same Old Tricks

Balance in Nothingness: Reaction: Cancel an action or Event targeting one or more of your bowed Personalities.

The Same Old Tricks: Reaction: Before the second or later time in one turn the same action on a target non-Formation card is used, cancel that action and permanently remove it from that card.

Key is determining what "used" means.

It means the same thing "taken" means. An action isn't used until it's legally declared and paid for. Which means Saori is bowed, which means Balance is legal.

Yajinden & Force of Will

Playing Spawning Grounds/Jigoku

I have in play Mishime with Force of Will, Yosuchi with +3 Chi, and Yajinden in play.

I bow Mishime, and target Yosuchi with Force of Will, switching his Chi and Personal Honor. I react with Yajinden's ability, and redirect the 6 point Chi penalty to one of my opponent's Personalities.

What are Yosuchi's Chi & Personal honor, assuming my opponent doesn't have any reactions?

Well, first you need to find some way to make that Chi Penalty a Maho effect before Yajinden will redirect it. But assuming you find some way to do that (Jubal's suggestion about Jama Suru XP was a good example):

You redirected the Chi Penalty, but the Personal Honor Bonus effect still resolves normally. Assuming Yosuchi was 0PH, 6CHI when you cast Force of Will, it will now be 6 PH (0 + 6) and 6 CHI.

Weigh the Cost

If it's the only card focussed, do I get to draw?

Weigh the Cost says, "When this card is revealed as a focus in a duel, add 1 to its Focus value and to that of one other card you focused this duel, then draw a card."

I you don't have 2 Focus cards, one of the effects of Weigh the Cost fails. All the other effects will resolve normally - it increases its own Focus Value and you draw a card.

Suitengu's Surge timing question

Suitengu's Surge is a reaction BEFORE a unit is targeted, right? Since the unit has not been chosen as a target before it is removed, is there any reason why the targeting effect cannot choose a different target and proceed? This runs counter to the way I hear people are playing it.

The "before" timing can't happen before the targeting is done. "Before" in this situation only means that Suitengu's Surge happens before any "when" or "after" Reactions to the same trigger.

You don't have a legal trigger until the targeting player makes up his mind and declares the unit a target, at which point it is too late to undo the decision.

Khol Wall "blank" switching

Is it legal to use the Khol Wall ability on two Personalities at the current battlefield? (Khol Wall says "switch their locationS", but I'm not sure it's enough to make it illegal when the two are at the same location).

I suppose you could target them and take the Action all legal-like. Nothing on Khol wall says the targets need to be anything but unbowed and controlled by the same player. However, neither would move, so the ability would produce failed effects.

Saori, Balance in Nothingness & The SameOld Tricks / Saori, Balance in Nothingness & The SameOld Tricks

I disagree.

The key word for SoT is BEFORE a action is used. Not used. So before you initiate the action is when you play SoT. You told me the essentially same thing when using Soshi Seika in removing the political trait after playing a political action to prevent it being Outmanuvered by Force. The same thing also applies to Imperial Messenger which reads:

Imperial Messenger (U Holding [FOU] SG SD): 0G Imperial Retainer * Political Reaction: Bow before a player plays a card that will cause that player an Honor loss. The player may discard the card instead of playing it. If it is played, increase the Honor loss by the printed loss amount. *

Since Saori is straight when she starts the action and you are going BACK in time to BEFORE the action is played, Balance shouldnt be able to be played because this should be BEFORE the personality is bowed.

Team of One

ps yes I know IM says Bow instead of Use, but I disagree that its the key here, BEFORE is the key.

The use of "before" versus "after" doesn't change what the trigger is. The difference only helps determine when Reactions are announced relative to other Reactions with the same trigger. But even a Reaction "before X" will come after a Reaction "after W" when X comes after W.

An action is neither "used" nor "taken" until it is fully announced, targeted, and paid for. (And from that point, if it's canceled, that status is lost.) Reactions "before an action is used" do not backtrack to an earlier stage.

Soshi Seika and Imperial Messenger either do nothing, are retroactive, or to be thoroughly correct should react before a player "announces" the card/action rather than before playing/taking it. (Thank you, Spycraft.) The third is least disruptive. Just because they have to be retroactive or explained is not a reason to judge other cards differently than the standard I've described in the last two paragraphs.

The Player Design Team is discussing redefining "before an action is taken" to "before an action is announced" and "after an action is taken" as "after an action resolves". On the one hand, it looks more intuitive at first glance. On the other, that's not what the cards actually say. Plus, this change would impact nearly all Reactions in the game to playing a card or taking an action.

That should cover everything from Tuesday. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of your Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.