Rules for 19 October 2004

The Rules for Tuesday, OCtober 19, 2004

Rules for 11 October 2004

I have a question on this, or maybe it's about the smart card rule, why can i declare an illegal action such as say a too large kuro's fire, and let the feild make it legal, but i can't declare a illegal target, say an oni in play for a shrine of fu-leng, and wait for the feild to make it legal? i guess the question comes down to "How do you decide how 'smart' a card is allowed to be?"

With Kuro's Fire, you aren't declaring an illegal Action.

The legality of the Action, according to Kuro's Fire, is determined based on what strength Ranged Attack is - produced -. The Ranged Attack is produced on the Resolution of the Action, but you have to choose a base number during the Declaration Step - way before resolution.

So you have to use all publicly available knowledge to figure out how much is actually going to be produced - that means factoring in on-going decreases (like Shinjo Xushen) and on-going increases (like Higher Ground). Kuro's Fire creates a large mess because it forces you to make a decision based on projecting what will happen in the future.

Targeting, on the other hand, has no such timing trouble. When it comes time to choose a target, that target is either valid or invalid. An invalid target becoming valid later on doesn't factor into it at all, because the targeting happens immediately when you choose - unlike the Ranged Attack production of Kuro's Fire, that happens long after you choose a number.

While Kuro's Fire is a mess, the Smart Cards rule is still very important for effect that have to get played before something - would - happen.

Playing Honor’s Cost and redirection

My opponent has a Danjuro and Chieh (Exp.). I play Honor’s Cost to Chieh (exp.), but my opponent use the Danjuro's Reaction:

1.- Could Danjuro redirect the Honor’s Cost to him?

Of course. Danjuro is a legal target.

2.- If Danjuro may redirect it, what is the printed Gold cost of the Honor’s Cost?

Honor's Cost says, "The printed Gold cost of this card equals the target's Chi plus Personal Honor."

A) Seven Gold due to 5Chi + 2PH from Chieh (Exp.) B) Four Gold due to 3Chi + 1PH from Danjuro

Danjuro is the target. The cost will be 4.

Now a different example, but in the same way. My opponent has a Toshiji and Kaneka, with a Turn of Fortune in hand. I play Honor’s Cost to Toshiji

3.- Could my opponent redirect the Honor’s Cost to Kaneka playing Turn of Fortune?

Yes. Kaneka is a legal target.

4.- If he can redirect it to Kaneka, what is the printed Gold cost of the Honor’s Cost?

C) Seven Gold due to 4Chi + 3PH from Toshiji D) Eight Gold due to 6Chi + 2PH from Kaneka

Kaneka is the target. The gold cost is 8.

5.- After paying the Gold cost, what happens to Kaneka? E) Honor’s Cost effects bows Kaneka F) Nothing. Kaneka remains unbowed.

Honor's Cost does exactly what it says it does - it bows Kaneka (the target).

question

I am somewhat surprised this set of questions hasn't come up before. The cards involved have been around for more than 4 months!

First situation: Fire Dragon is making a Ranged 10 attack using it's Innate ability, using City of Rememberence's ability to ignore the bowing part, and has a Kuro's Fire or Fires from Within. May he then bow to cast the spell, and add the two attacks together?

Sure. Those are two Ranged Attack abilities on two different cards. You can combine them into a Ranged Attack Action. Just keep in mind that combining other attacks into Kuro's Fire is usually counter-productive, since you must still abide Kuro's Fire's action restrictions on this combined Ranged Attack Action (Force + Chi cap).

Second situation. Fire Dragon out of CoR. Isawa House Guard is also in play. May the Fire Dragon bow to cast his Ranged 10, straighten with the IHG, then bow to cast it again, combining them? Or bow for his two ranged 5s, making a ranged 15 and a ranged 5 attack?

"a card can not combine ranged attacks with itself." (Diamond Edition Rulebook, page 90)

What about a shugenja [we'll use Agasha Seruma] with Fires From Within and the IHG attached. May she cast a FFW, straighten with the IHG, and cast it again, combining the attacks?

You hit the same problem as in the previous example.

What happens if you add Kuro's Fire to the situation? Can you combine two Kuro's Fire attacks in this way? How does that work?

You can only combine two Kuro's Fire attacks if you have two Kuro's Fire spells in the same unit. The net effect, however, is zilch.

I can't remember seeing what you do if you have a Spearmen on the Shugenja with KF. Can it add? Only to the first one?

It can add, albiet not in any effective way (since you're still under the Kuro's Fire cap). It can only add to the first one, since you have to declare it at the beginning of the Action and it has to be based on a timing both actions can meet, which only happens on the first Ranged Attack.

What if you use the Fire Dragon's two Ranged 5 attacks without bowing from CoR, and a Kuso's Fire? Are the first 2 attacks basically increased by 5?

Effectively, though you can't get any result you couldn't get with Kuro's Fire along, so it seems rather pointless.

Overconficende

I?ve got an question about the card Overconfidence. The Mrp reads is legal in Storyline Simulations. does this mean the card isn?t legal for tournaments like the EC? I wanna play a deck in which I have Overconfidence and so I need to know if that is legal or if I have to exchange it for other cards.

When Diamond Edition was released, Overconfidence was accidentally left off the printing sheets. Consequently, it did not have a Diamond Bug on it, and was not legal for Diamond-only Storyline Simulation Tournament formats.

So a rule was issued that made it legal to play in Diamond Format.

As soon as it was possible, Overconfidence was reprinted in Hidden City Starter Decks with the Diamond Bug, making the prior ruling a moot point. Since the Most Recent Printing of the card has the Diamond Bug, it is Diamond Legal.

Question

I have Tsuruchi Renshi in battle and I am playing Castle of the wasp. My opponent has spud with 4 force with a Iron legion attached he also has terrain x in play.

I attempt to do Renshi's ranged 4 attack without bowing. My opponent chooses to destroy the terrain. What happens to the range attack since I no longer have any legal targets? Is the stronghold ability still considered used?

Tsuruchi Renshi says, "Bow Renshi for a Ranged 4 Attack. Before targeting this attack, each player who controls Terrains in this battle may destroy any of them. If there is still a Terrain in play, this ranged attack may target a Personality with attached Followers."

The sequence of Action Play goes like this: Declare, Target, Pay Costs, Resolve Effects.

So before you choose a target, your opponent chooses whether or not to destroy the terrain.

Since he does so, you have no legal targets for your Action. It fails. Priority to play an Open or Battle Action passes to the player to your left. You are not considered to have passed, though.

You never successfully performed a Ranged Attack Action, so the Castle of the Wasp can be used again freely.

Update - Extending the "Search" Rules

Jeff would like me to pass on this information on behalf of the Rules Team. It is relevant to recent discussion on this list, and will reverse the previous standing ruling on Shrine of Fu Leng.

The standing rulings in the archive under "Targeting" and "Search" include the following two rulings:

"Effects that let you to search a deck for a particular card (e.g., Walking the Way) do not target the card. [JA, email, 19 January 2001; 23 July 2001]

If instructed to search your deck for a particular type of card, you must find a card of the required type if there is one. [JA, 8 March 2004]"

These two rulings were originally specific to searching Decks. As of now, these rulings will apply to any effect that specifically instructs you to search ANYWHERE, not just a deck.

This across-the-board definition of "search" should help reduce confusion by reducing exceptions and situations where two cards can say nearly the same thing, but work in fundamentally different ways.

So, in the case of Shrine of Fu Leng, you will no longer have to choose the card you find with its "search" effect ahead of time, since it will not target the card it searches for in your Discard Pile.

Card Text: "Limited: Bow Shrine of Fu Leng and destroy one of your Personalities to search your Dynasty discard pile for a destroyed Oni Personality and put it into play without Gold cost."

Thank you, - Marty Lund Deputy Rules Monkey

That should cover everything from Tuesday, October 19, 2004. If I missed your question unrelated to Dawn of the Empire, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of a Clear and Distinct subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.