Rules for 25 June 2004
A rules digest from the L5R CCG rules team, copied from the mailing list archive for Oracle of the Void. The askers' names are left out. Rulings are as they stood on this date; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Your Rules for Friday, June 25, 2004
targeting
Comments Below:
How so? I announce Suiteru-chan's action and choose Shukumei as the sacrifice. I choose Shukumei, Iuchiban, Naka Tokei and Suiteru as the locations of the follower tokens.
All announcements have been made and decisions have been made (since you have to do all of your targeting before the action begins to resolve).
[MARTY] To be more clear, this is what has happened:
You've declared / announced your Action.
You've chosen all your Targets.
Now you're moving on to "Pay Costs."
Now the action begins to resolve.
[MARTY] No. The Action can not begin to resolve its effects until all its costs are dealt with. You must destroy Shukumei to pay your cost before you can move on to resolving the Action's effects.
Shukumei dies. Shukumei is no longer a legal target for the Suiteru follower token, but that doesn't matter since it doesn't qualify under Jeff's rule. Shukumei became an illegal target AFTER the action began to resolve.
[MARTY] As noted above, this is incorrect. Shukumei was destroyed while paying costs - BEFORE the action began to resolve. That will make Shukumei inelligible for Suiteiru tokens.
Am I missing something here that keeps Shukumei from getting a follower?
[MARTY] The only thing you've missed is the timing:
1.) Announce Action
2.) Select Targets
3.) Pay Costs (sacrifice Shukumei)
4.) Resolve Effects
Re shono duels and targeting.
Say my oppenent targets an unbowed shugenja with i. challange and i turn of fortune it to shinjo shono exp2 how does this interact with shonos trait regarding discarding two cards? Do they have a choice? <ust they discard at all? If they have not enough cards isshono an illegal target
"Players must discard two Fate cards from their hands to challenge Shono" - that adds a cost to issuing a Challenge. You redirect with Turn of Fortune during the Targeting Step. There isn't a challenge to discard for until you Resolve Effects, so your opponent can get roped into discarding if you redirect to Shono. If they don't have enough cards in their hand, they can't pay the cost to challenge Shono and the challenge will not be issued.
More decisions - Poltical interference, stern reprimand and shadowlands players
As far as I understand the current rulling on decisions, Political interference forces the player to pay 2 gold or yield in their attemp to play the card right? since they can't lose honor, they can't chose that option
Political Interference forces the victim player to choose whether they lose 2 honor or the cost of the card gets increased by 2. Shadowlands players can't choose to lose 2 honor, so they always get stuck with the cost increase.
If the card's cost is increased, then the player must either pay enough to meet the new cost, or he can yield the attempt to play the card.
Here, however, my knowledge of the rules yields. Is the shadowlands player forced to return the card to his hand? or since either choice will have some effects, he can chose to leave it there, and dishonor the personality?
Stern Reprimand has an unusual wording that has a ruling attached to it.
"Because Stern Reprimand produces all of its effects no matter which option is chosen, the general rule (i.e., that a player forced to do something by another player's card cannot try to do so in an impossible or useless way) does not apply. [Reversal, JA, 23 October 2003]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Stern Reprimand")
Under that Ruling, the Shadowlands Player can choose to have Stern Reprimand dishonor the Personality and inflict a 4 honor less that is then Negated.
Heart of Sume, again
The question become : Is Sume's ability (at home) covered by the Heart of a Hero bonus ?
No. Heart of a Hero says, "raise by 3 all new Force bonuses created by actions you take between now and the end of the battle."
Sume's Reaction is taken AFTER the end of the battle, thus it would never fall in the range of "between now and the end of the battle."
Kakita Mai and Superior Stance and what about that Hiruma Ashihei
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a Shadowlands player cannot refuse Kakita Mai, but can refuse Iajutsu Challenge right? So if Kakita Mai uses her action to start a challenge, and the player refuses, if Kakita Mai's player plays Superior Stance, does opponent still lose the 4 honor since that honor loss has been ruled a cost of refusing?
Sure. The 4-point loss is a Cost of Refusing, not an Effect of Refusing.
Timing of Air and Water
I have already cast 2 spells or kihos this turn. My 4th battle action in a battle is a spell or kiho. I play the Ring of Water, can I now introspect for the Ring of Air and play it.
Sure, you drop the Ring of Water in response to playing the Action.
You play Introspection in response to the Ring of Water.
If no one has any other responses to Ring of Water, then go back to playing responses to your Kiho.
Play Ring of Air.
Oh and while we're at it what does 'taking' an action mean? Is it enough to just try and play the action, or if it's cancelled do not count as having 'taken' it? What if it was negated?
"Taking" is the whole process from declaration to resolving the last effect.
"Before taking" happens in response to announcement.
"After / when taking" and "after / when takes" triggers happen after you pay all costs for the Action, but immediately before you resolve any of that Action's effects.
When is an Action Taken?
But when is an action taken?
"Taking an Action" constitutes the full process of playing an Action:
1.) Declare the Action
2.) Select Targets
3.) Pay Costs
4.) Resolve Effects
You are "Taking an Action" throughout this entire process. When that process ends, you can take Actions that happen "after resolving" that Action.
An Action is considered "Taken" (and an Action Card considered "Played") once it gets through the "Pay Costs" step (and Reactions to those payments) without getting Canceled. Responses triggered on when someone "Takes" an Action, "Plays" an Action Card, or "Casts" a Spell / Kiho are played then, before the first Effect of the Action resolves. This same timing applies for responses that are played "after taking," "after casting," etc. - such as Ring of Air and Ring of Water.
Yes, it is an arbitrary point in time, chosen by Design.
The other important things to know are:
A.) "Taking" and "Playing" are synonymous in regards to using Actions.
B.) "Casting" is synonymous to "Taking" and "Playing" in regards to Actions on Spell cards.
C.) "Performing" has the same scope as "Playing" - only it starts as soon as the Personality in question qualifies as "Performing" as per page 71 and can end before "playing" ends if the Personality leaves play.
Other RoAir question
If I play three kiho or spells in one turn, I can drop the ring of air. If my third kiho/spell action is an action that bows the caster, may I unbow the caster with the Ring of Air after the Ring of Air has been played?
No. You can't play the Ring of Air until all costs have been paid and the window of opportunity to play Reactions to the payment of such costs has closed by all players passing in a row. Then you play the Ring and it is too late to use it to straighten your casting Monk or Shugenja.
Timing of Air and Water -followup
Marty, I recently read the targeting rules that the rules team clarified and it now appears that when I announce an action, I have to declare all of my targets immediately (unless I'm creating multiple consecutive ranged attacks).
Well, yes. If you are the player taking the Action, you have to do all your unconditional targeting for the Action during the Targeting Step, which immediately follows the Declaration Step - except for Consecutive Ranged Attacks, of which you only have to pick the firs target initially, and targeted effects of Delayed Terrains.
1) If there is an action that makes my opponent choose targets at the same time as me, does my opponent have to choose targets now also? 2) What about for actions like Isawa's Last Wish where it's do A, then B? Does my opponent choose the target before I pay costs for an action like that (this would be a change from Gold)
No. Normally the other players are not required to participate in any part of another player's Action until that Action manages to successfully get to the "resolve effects" step and resolves an effect that forces them to do so.
Their choices don't normally affect whether a play is legal or illegal. Your choices do, so they have to happen before you resolve effects.
3) What about for actions where an effect doesn't happen for a while like Mountains of the Phoenix. Do my opponent and I now have to choose our targets before the costs are paid and the card enters play?
Delayed Terrains are an aberration, and Mountains of the Phoenix is a Delayed Terrain. They need to have their targets chosen by all players on resolution due to their time-bomb nature. They have special rules, but it really boils down to "all players pick targets on resolution."
4) Specifically for Mountains of the Phoenix, if I have to pick the target immediately, does having the unit leave the army then make it an illegal target (thus preventing the destruction
Don't worry about it. Delayed Terrains don't play by the same rules as everything else. Pick targets when the effect resolves that needs the target.
That should probably go in the Rulebook somewhere next edition ...
End of Battle / Resolution Question - (was Re: [L5R-CCG] Rules for 14 May 2004)
Comments Below:
Has Jeff ruled on this yet? I can't seem to find anything about it, but if I did miss it, I apologize.
Matthew
Jeff said this, "The terrain's effect would occur. Even if simultaneous, it is still in play when the Personality starts to get destroyed."
When is an Action Taken? (one typo)
I'm going to flesh out the four segments with the 'between' areas, since all reactions have a 'before / when / after' possibility. I am also including an example of one reaction that would fit into each segment, if such a reaction exists in the Diamond format.
Nice work there, BTW. I'm going to include it in the Digest with my own notes.
When is an Action Taken? (one typo)
This way, I want to make sure /I/ have my head 'screwed on correctly' regarding actions. :) So, rather than the traditional indenting of replies, know that: 1) all the 'between' segment headings are my words. 2) I'm quoting Marty on 'between 3 and 4' and 'after 4', the paragraphs, "An Action is considered taken..." and the "after resolving" sentence. 3) Example text is taken from l5rsearch.com. (What? I'm not going to type when I can cut and paste! :) 4) I highlighted key words in the examples with *asterisks*. 5) Everything else is me.
Comments Below:
"Taking an Action" constitutes the full process of playing an Action:
1.) Declare the Action
For Action cards, 'when' the card is played happens is at 'between 3 and 4'. Likewise, 'when X performs' is at the same point. That's all well and good for 'when', but when does 'before' happen? That is, does 'before' fall into a particular segment, or can reactions with these syntaxes be played from this point onward?
Basically, you play them in immediately in response to the declaration. They are considered to be in effect before you are playing the Action.
Example: Imperial Messenger: Political Reaction: Bow *before a player plays a card* that will cause that player an Honor loss. The player may discard the card instead of playing it. If it is played, increase the Honor loss by the printed loss amount.
Example: Daidoji Akagi: Reaction: Once per turn, *before Akagi performs* a ranged attack, discard a card from your hand to increase the strength of the ranged attack by the Focus value of the discard.
Between 1 and 2. After Declaring an action is here.
Example: ?
I can't think of any either.
We can't forget 'before targeting'.
Example: Isawa Notodai (Exp): Reaction: Once per turn, *before you choose a target* for a ranged attack from your cards, allow that attack to target a Personality with Followers.
2.) Select Targets During #2 is 'when' targets are being selected.
Example: Break the Line: Reaction: *When* an innate ability, Spell, Kiho,or ranged attack action *targets* a card in your army, bow one of your Samurai or Bushi in this army to cancel the action.
This is the timing that you see commonly with Balance in Nothingness, Shiba Danjuro, Flee the Darkness, and Turn of Fortune
Between 2. and 3. At this point, reactions 'after targeting' apply, then before 'paying costs'.
Example: Soul of the Grand Master: Reaction: Bow Soul of the Grand Master *after a player targets* you or your cards with a Spell or Kiho to look at that player's hand.
Example: Akodo's No-Dachi: Reaction: *Before any player discards a card* from his or her hand for a Tactician Force bonus, bow Akodo's No-Dachi to force the card to be chosen randomly. (Discarding a card for the tactician force bonus is a cost.)
3.) Pay Costs The numbers are the easy ones, as they are the 'when' sections of their heading names.
Example: Devout Acolyte: Reaction: Once per turn, produce 1 Gold *when paying for* an action on a Temple, Shrine, or Oracle.
Between 3 and 4. After paying costs.
Example: Hero's Grave: Reaction: *After your Stronghold bows* for any reason other than producing Gold, bow Hero's Grave to straighten it. If it bowed to use one of its actions, that action may not be used for the rest of the turn. (Though it can also be used to straighten a stronghold which bowed as an effect, more likely we're bowing the stronghold to pay for an action. :)
Bowing the Kakita Dueling Academy to fetch an Iaijutsu Action would be a good one here.
An Action is considered "Taken" (and an Action Card considered "Played") once it gets through the "Pay Costs" step (and Reactions to those payments) without getting Canceled. Responses triggered on when someone "Takes" an Action, "Plays" an Action Card, or "Casts" a Spell / Kiho are played then, before the first Effect of the Action resolves.
Example: Ring of Water: Play Ring of Water *after taking* four or more Battle actions in one battle.
And Ring of Air too: *after casting*
One more 'out on a limb' here. At this point, is it too late to Cancel the action?
It is not too late to Cancel it, though several means of canceling the Action may be past their timing windows. For instance, Hiruma Ashihei will Cancel an Action dishonoring him immediately before the dishonoring effect resolves. That could be right at the end or middle of the Action's effects - see Feign Death for an example.
I refer to the following blanket reaction, which has no limitation that I can see for 'at which segment' within the action taking process that it can be played:
Example: Faith in My Clan: Reaction: Cancel an action. Play this card only if a Clan Champion from your Faction is in your army in the current battle.
Faith in my Clan, Kyuden Ikoma, etc. are played as a "when" timing in response to when an Action is considered to be "taken." They'll happen before the "after" timing of Ring of Air and Ring of Water, preventing them from being played.
"Reactions played in response to an action (e.g., Faith In My Clan, Kyuden Ikoma) must be played before the action produces any effects (e.g., Fear, a Ranged Attack) or has one of its effects modified (e.g., The Face of Fear, Arrows From the Woods). [JA, 8 December 2003, ZF, 10 December 2003]" (Accumulated Rulings, "Timing")
4.) Resolve Effects Effects could be one or many. Each effect has a before/ when/after for it.
Example Before: Hidden City: Reaction: *Before* one of your Personalities is *destroyed by another player's action* during an Action Phase, straighten Hidden City to negate the destruction.
Example When: House of the First Stone: Reaction: Bow the House *when a unit is being sent home bowed* from a battle by an action to negate the bowing.
Example After: Hero's Banner: Reaction: Once per turn, *after Hero's Banner is destroyed* while in an army, return it to your hand and reduce its Gold cost to 0 until the battle ends.
After 4. When that process ends, you can take Actions that happen "after resolving" that Action.
Example: Acolytes of Air: Elemental Reaction: *After* a ranged attack *action resolves* whose effects targeted a card in this army, straighten Acolytes of Air.
That's one very solid timeline, my friend. I hope we see something similar as a reference in the next rulebook, or maybe a volume of the FAQ.
Broken Words and seppuku
Can a samurai (or courtier) commit seppuku in response to the 7 honor loss from Broken Words before they die when they lose a fatal duel?
Yes. You technically lose the duel before any consequences of losing happen, just like you lose the battle before your army is destroyed. Losing / winning happens on comparing final stat totals. At that point, the honor loss becomes unconditional and you can commit seppuku before any further effects resolve (like losing 7 honor).
And that should cover everything from Friday, June 25, 2004. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of a distinct and clear subject line. I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.