rules for 6 Feb. 2004
A rules digest from the L5R CCG rules team, copied from the mailing list archive for Oracle of the Void. The askers' names are left out. Rulings are as they stood on this date; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Zen's back, time to flood the list with questions.
We missed you Zen. Honest. Jeff neglected his duties :P
Heh. Jeff was helping make sure Hidden City lives up to its promises.
Anyway, here we go. I have two just so you can have a nice warm welcome.
Zen isn't back, though. He's just pointing out he still reads.
1) If I play Plans Within Plans, MUST I use my next opportunity to play an open action or can I wait until my oppenent has taken a few more limited actions and then use one of mine.
"At your next opportunity to take an Open action, you may instead take a Limited action." [card text]
You can't do it later. It's your next opportunity, or never.
2)On Bayushi Sunetra Exp, the last line of her trait where it says her people still contribute while bowed. Does that mean: a: Bowed people add their force but their unbowed followers still do not. b: Bowed people add their force along with their unbowed followers. c: Bowed people add their forcer along with their bowed followers
"Scorpion Clan Personalities in her army add their Force to their total unit Force even while bowed." [card text] A.
Logical Question
According with my precedent question about spell's effects, I find a non-sense in the rules :
Jeff Alexander confirm that the effects comes from the cards where they're written on. I'm remember that rules is pretty old... So, in that case, a shugenja that cast a spell DON'T produce himselves the action on the spell, he just cast it, the spell produce the action.
Logically, with this fundamental rule, a shugenja that cast a spell that make a ranged attack with Castle of the Wasp can't not bow. Simply because the shugenja produce no range himselve, the spell is...
*sigh*
I'm afraid that once again consistancy and intuition are at complete odds with one another, and intuition just lost.
You're right. When a Spell is cast, the Spell produces its effects, not the Shugenja. The Spell is where the effects are written. That means bowing a Shugenja to cast a Spell actually, really, finally doesn't interact with the second effect of the Castle of the Wasp. I suppose this can't help but be another REVERSAL.
We've actually known about this subtle interaction for awhile but allowed the ruling to stand due to the sheer number of people who don't understand why we don't go with a ruling intuitive to the vast majority of our player base over one that's nearly impossible to justify to someone who doesn't already understand the reasoning behind it, but I've been getting to many private emails pointing out the inconsistancy, and one thing I have learned is that problems in the rules refuse to stay buried forever.
Rules questions
Hi Jeff,
next try...
Can a Shinden Horiuchi player attach Spells to his Elemental Dragons? Dragon's can't attach Items, but "your Spells" means "controlled by you". How does the timing work here?
Attachment restrictions are based on the state of the game before the attachment is done. Before you declare you're trying to attach the card, it is only a Spell. The Dragons can attach it.
Honor & Glory has resolved. Is it possible to use Imperial Messenger to increase the honor loss of a Iaijutsu Challenge? Or can Imperial Messenger only react to cards that have an honor loss printed on them?
Imperial Messenger does not care if the card itself is the source of the loss. It only cares whether an unconditional loss will occur if the card is played. It can be played against Iaijutsu Challenge under Honor & Glory.
Player A wants to targeted a personality of player B, who plays Razors Edge Dojo. Player B player wants to cancel the Action. a) The cancelation will happen at the Resolution substep (e.g. Faith in my Clan). Does A have to discard the card anyway?
Yes.
b) The cancelation will happen at the targeting step (e.g. Flee the Darkness). What's first now, the discard effect or the cancelation?
The discard.
c) In both cases, does A have to discard another card for his second Action, as the first Action now never happened?
Yes.
Strategic Crossroads is played in an Ambush to get the Battle actions for Ring of Water (trying to move in another personality 3 times, which fails because Ambush doesn't allow the movement). The ruling for Tireless Assault say: Ambush: Because other units may not move into the battle, any action that would try to move in another unit (e.g., Tireless Assault) are not legal because they will not satisfy the Rule of Relevance. [JA, 11 August 2003] Now, as a terrain, Strategic Crossroads is a card at the battle, which satisfies Relevance - is it legal or not?
No.
There is no action on Strategic Crossroads. There is a trait that describes an action players can use, but that is not an action on the Terrain.
The same question could be asked for Kagetora EXP and Paneki EXP; if they try to use their action in an Ambush, Relevance would also be satisfied.
Agreed, but these cards are clearly at the battle and their actions are on their own cards.
Player A's Ashura dies. Player B plays Feign Death on the Ashura. Who suffers the entering play honor loss?
Player A.
Can Imperial Messenger be used to increase this loss?
No, because the person taking the action is not the one suffering the loss. [Imperial Messenger card text]
A player takes control of a personality with Show of Good Faith, kills it and returns it with Feign Death. Is he allowed to attack now?
Yes. The restriction against attacking ended when the Personality died. [Show of Good Faith card text]
The FAQ and the Accumulated Rulings seem to be in contradiction here...
When you find an error, please point out where. It's much more helpful.
2 Craby questions
1. After Overwhelmed is played against me, can I choose Tatsuzo and then bow a follower to cancel the action?
Yes. An action is targeting him.
2. After Overwhelmed is played against me, can I play The Mountain dos not Move to cancel the destruction if my personality has the Yu trait?
Yes. Another player's card or action is trying to destroy him.
Seek the Path clarification request
Regarding Seek the Path, there has been some contention on dragonstrategy as to what "instead" means. If I force someone to draw their top card instead of searching their deck for a card, does that scratch the rest of their action, or just the searching?
"Target one of your unbowed Shugenja or Monks before a player searches his or her Fate deck for a card to force that player to draw the top card of his or her Fate deck instead."
He draws his top card instead of searching his entire deck and taking a card of his choice. Only the search-and-take effect is altered -- if whatever is making him search also does other things, those still happen.
As a specific example, if my opponent bows Grove of the Five Masters to get a kiho, and I play Seek the Path, does he simply get the top card and do nothing more, or does the rest of the Grove effect continue? (i.e. does he have to show it to me, discard a card to keep it if its a kiho, and discard it otherwise?)
He must still show it to you, put it in his hand, and then discard a card. He gets to keep it even if it's not a Kiho.
What about cases where the card is supposed to be immediately played, such as Matsu Watako?
He must try to do the same thing with it as instructed by the original effect. If he cannot, he must discard it.
Finally, does searching a subsection of your deck count as a trigger for searching your deck? (e.g. Naseru's Strength, Togashi Shozo)
No.
Stupid Questions Ahoy
Okay, just a couple of silly things that have come up amongst my friends who've started playing...
Title The Hiruma Dojo Text Bow the Hiruma Dojo to produce 3 Gold. Reaction: When paying for a Samurai, bow the Hiruma Dojo to lower that Samurai's Gold cost by 4
My friend had two of these out, he wanted to rotate is stronghold to for 5 gold, then rotate a Hiruma Dojo to lower the cost of a personality and then rotate another to lower it's cost...
His justification was that the oppurtunity to react starts with him, he takes it, and then he gets another opportunity to react, and can do it.
My argument was that a reaction is a type of action, and that he would be reacting to the action of the Hiruma Dojo which doesn't fit the cost.
Which one is right?
Your friend is. L5R does not allow players only one total chance to react to things. All players may react to the same thing as many times as they want until they all refuse.
You are partially correct in that there IS a chance for everyone to play Reactions to your opponent bowing the first Dojo, but once everyone is finished reacting to THAT, both of you go back to reacting to the previous trigger event -- in this case, the fact that he's paying for a Samurai. His use of a second Hiruma Dojo is legal.
Also
What exactly is the deal with the rule of presence... I seem to remember reading that if you are the defender and you get attacked but assign no units to defend that playing "blocked supply lines" is NOT legal... is this the case?
That is the case. You have no one in the battle and what you're trying to use a Battle action that isn't going to give you someone there, so it isn't allowed.
And what is the reason, under what conditions are cards playable with out a unit...
From the online FAQ at http://www.legendofthefiverings.com/ccg/faq.html :
Q: The rulebook says Battle and Open actions can both be used during battle, but it also says they might not be allowed. That's confusing! How can I tell when I can take an action and when I can't?
A: During an attack, every Battle and Open action is checked against two special rules, called the Rule of Presence and the Rule of Relevance. If the action fails either check, it's not legal. In a nutshell, these two rules basically say, "You can't take a Battle or an Open action unless both it and you are somehow involved in the battle going on right now." That's all there is to it, really. The rest is nitty-gritty details defining exactly what "involved" means.
In addition, some -- but not all -- actions require that the acting card be in the battle itself. If an action -- any action, even a Reaction -- refers to an "opposing" card, or "this battle", or something like "any other unit in the battle" or "another attacking Personality", that action's card has to be present in the current battle. (This rule only applies when the card is one that can actually be in battles. If something like a regular Holding talks about "opposing" cards, it really means "any card opposing one of your other cards", not "any card opposing this Holding", and if it says "this battle" it means the same thing as "the current battle".)
Also, the Rulings say that if both attacker and defender ask you to ally, you may play cards on either one that target an opposing character, but once you've chosen a side you can't go back... what if only one person asks you, can you only play them on one persons side?
Of course.
rules for 5 Feb. 2004
Yes. And then it says, "This attachment happens as a Limited action in your Action Phase." Tell your friends they're taking a sentence out of context.
I'm trying to understand why this works exactly the way it does. I know that other token generators like Farmlands/Utaku Meadows/Ratling Villages all state "your personality", which Utemaro does not. I was under the impression that followers/items/spells etc. could only attach to personalities controlled by the person playing them, and that exceptions to that rule stated so(Dragon Puzzle Box, Kolat Bodyguard, etc.). I thought that was covered by the rules of attaching cards.
Those rules govern the attaching of cards from your hand as a Limited action that is built into the game. That's all they cover. Utemaro does not fall under them.
Creating tokens on other players' Personalities via a card that does not specify they can only go on your own has precedents going back to the Master Smith in Imperial Edition. This isn't a new development.
A Couple Overwhelmed Questions
OK, here's the scenerio. I attack only with a Hiruma Tatsuzo with a follower. My opponent defends and uses Overwhelmed. Can I bow Tatsuzo's follower to cancel Overwhelmed?
Yes, if you target Tatsuzo with it.
Also, assuming I have a monk or shugenja in play, can I use Flee the Darkness to cancel Overwhelmed?
Not if YOU are the one picking Tatsuzo to receive Overwhelmed's deleterious effects. The Most Recent Printing of Flee the Darkness can only cancel actions that are aimed at your Personalities by other players. Actions that you aim -- even if they were PLAYED by someone else -- cannot be canceled with it.
The only legal way to cancel Overwhelmed with Flee the Darkness requires that you be an ally in a multiplayer game.
Shiba Ningen exp / Shrine to Fukurokujin
Relevant Texts:
Shiba Ningen exp: Elemental Rection: Once per turn, after you draw a Fate card, discard that card to draw a Fate card.
Shrine to Fukurokujin: Bow Shrine to Fukurokujin and one of your Personalities to draw a card. Show the card to your opponants; if its Focus value is greater than or equal to the Personality's printed Chi, discard it.
Situation: I bow someone with 4 Chi to draw a card from Fukurokujin. I see the Focus Value of the card is 4. Can Ningen react immediately after the draw (There is a period between 'draw a card' and 'Show the card to your opponants') to discard that card and draw another?
Not only can he, he has to react then if he reacts at all.
If so, must the new card then be shown to the opponants, and be discarded if it's focus value is also greater than or equal to the intial personalities 4 Chi?
No. The card you drew for the Shrine -- which has already been discarded and should now be face-up in your discard pile -- must be shown to all opponents (which it kind of already is) and discarded (which doesn't happen because it can't be).
A stumped crab...
Does epkees ability negate the force bonus of Wedge?
It seems that the whole timing thing has me confused.
Are both armies still opposing each other? Yes -- the Resolution Segment has just begun when Wedge changes the unit's Force. Nothing has died yet.
Does Wedge give the Personality a Force bonus? Yes, unless the Personality is 0F. [MRP of Wedge, DE p. 62]
Ep'kee's Reaction is legal.
A few question to get answers for the record
If a player plays Unrequited Love on a Lion, and that Lion\222s controller use Rokuro to negate the bowing, does the Lion personality become dishonored and cause his controller to lose Honor equal to the Personality\222s printed Personal Honor?
The Lion player has two choices:
He may bow the Personality to gain 1 Honor. He may allow the Personality to become dishonored and lose Honor.
If he chooses the former, and the bowing is negated, he may continue trying to bow the Personality to gain 1 Honor or he may allow the payment to fail and gain nothing. But the Personality is not dishonored and no honor loss happens because he did not choose the second outcome of the card.
If the Underhand\222s card fetching ability is canceled, is that player prevented from naming the card that was named when the Underhand was canceled? If the \223effect is negated\224 with Confusion in court, is that player prevented from naming the card that was named when the Underhand was negated?
By errata, the Underhand should start with, "Discard the Imperial Favor to name a Political Action card." (This also solves the problem that the card technically has no cost.) If the action is canceled, the name is not "used up".