A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 4 February 2012
Halls of the Forgotten Reaction: After another player's Battle action targets your Berserker: Delay its effects on him until after this battle ends.
Steel on Steel Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Personality and target an enemy Personality: Your performer duels the target. Destroy the duel's loser.
If my berserker personality is targeted by an enemy personality using steel on steel(or similarly worded duel) and i react with Halls of the forgotten, does The reaction(halls of the forgotten) delay the process of the duel until after the battle ends?
If the duel is delayed, i assume that:
1) if the challenging enemy personality is killed, the duel will not take place 2) if the challenging enemy personality is bowed, the duel will not take place 3) if the challenging enemy personality is sent home or to a different battle field, the duel will not take place 4) if my berserker is dead, the duel will not take place 5) if my berserker is sent home or to a different battle field,the duel will not take place
are these assumptions correct?
Thank you for your time.
Jon Palmer (rules official), 8 February 2012
Halls of the Forgotten Reaction: After another player's Battle action targets your Berserker: Delay its effects on him until after this battle ends.
Steel on Steel Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Personality and target an enemy Personality: Your performer duels the target. Destroy the duel's loser.
If my berserker personality is targeted by an enemy personality using steel on steel(or similarly worded duel) and i react with Halls of the forgotten, does The reaction(halls of the forgotten) delay the process of the duel until after the battle ends?
If the duel is delayed, i assume that:
1) if the challenging enemy personality is killed, the duel will not take place 2) if the challenging enemy personality is bowed, the duel will not take place 3) if the challenging enemy personality is sent home or to a different battle field, the duel will not take place 4) if my berserker is dead, the duel will not take place 5) if my berserker is sent home or to a different battle field,the duel will not take place
are these assumptions correct?
Thank you for your time.
The process of the duel is not an effect ON the berserker. Therefore, Halls of the Forgotten will not delay the duel from happening, merely its consequences.
A player, 8 February 2012
Following up on this:http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=96100
I'm not, actually, trying to argue but I don't understand this ruling. Can someone correct me where I'm wrong so I can get a better understanding of the rules please.
1. Since an effect is defined as: "An effect is anything, other than a cost, that creates a card or other thing in the game, changes the characteristics or state of a card, stat or other thing in the game, adds restrictions or permissions to the game’s procedures, or creates a new instance of a game procedure." http://rules.l5r.com/EE_Effects#Definition_of_effects
2. And Duels are created by the challenge "effect" as outlined here: http://rules.l5r.com/EE_Challenges_and_duels
3. Which means that the duel is not the effect but the challenge is, this means that the duel should not happen until the challenge occurs which, itself, will be delayed until the battle ends, in the previously stated Halls of the Forgotten question.
The only thing I can see is if it is ruled that the "challenge" effect doesn't occur ON the personality even though it targets. I'm sure I'm missing something and I am, again, sorry for my ignorance and appreciate your help.
A player, 8 February 2012
viewtopic.php?p=1271384#p1271384 At what point does an effect that involves a card cross to being an effect ON that card? If I take an action that gives a target personality -2F, is that an effect ON the target personality? If that action instead said "Target a player. His personalities have -2F", is that a single effect ON the target player, or does it create individual effects that are ON each of that player's personalities?
Presumably the inability to delay duels extends to Goju Yurishi (Reaction: After another player's Battle action targets Yurishi: He disappears into the shadows. Move him home. If he is no longer a legal target for the action, negate its effects on him.) allowing the process of the duel to happen and focus effects to still take place even if Yurishi is no longer a legal target for the action creating the duel? I also assume that this does not extend to the EmpEdition Snake Tattoo since it negates all effects and not just effects on one of the personalities?
Alex Jones (rules official), 13 February 2012
viewtopic.php?p=1271384#p1271384 At what point does an effect that involves a card cross to being an effect ON that card? If I take an action that gives a target personality -2F, is that an effect ON the target personality? If that action instead said "Target a player. His personalities have -2F", is that a single effect ON the target player, or does it create individual effects that are ON each of that player's personalities?
Presumably the inability to delay duels extends to Goju Yurishi (Reaction: After another player's Battle action targets Yurishi: He disappears into the shadows. Move him home. If he is no longer a legal target for the action, negate its effects on him.) allowing the process of the duel to happen and focus effects to still take place even if Yurishi is no longer a legal target for the action creating the duel? I also assume that this does not extend to the EmpEdition Snake Tattoo since it negates all effects and not just effects on one of the personalities?
Challenges and duels are effects, but being targeted, being chosen as a performer, issuing a challenge, being challenged or entering a duel does not change in itself the state, stats, keywords, traits or any other aspect of any Personality, so they are not effects "on" any Personality. Thus, these effects are not delayed by Halls of the Forgotten, nor negated by Goju Yurishi's Reaction.
A blanket -2F to all your Personalities changes the stats of each Personality, so for each of your Personalities, it is an effect on that Personality.