L5R CCG Rules board, 21 September 2011 to 2 October 2011
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 21 September 2011
Hello again!
I play Strike Quickly, move in someone, take an additional action to use one of his base abilities and my opponent reacts with Iron Will. What happens then? Do I move home immediately, before I can take an additional action from Iron Will? If so, I guess that I can still take that additional action, right? Thanks again!
Relevant text: Strike Quickly Battle: If you are the Defender, choose your performing unbowed Personality: Move him to the current battefield. You may take an additional Battle action to use one of his base abilities. After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home.
Iron Will Reaction: After another player targets your Paragon with a Battle action performed by a Personality with lower Personal Honor: The action's costs are ignored and its effects are negated. That player may take an additional Battle action.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 22 September 2011
I play Strike Quickly, move in someone, take an additional action to use one of his base abilities and my opponent reacts with Iron Will. What happens then?
Let me make sure I understand what's happening here. Strike Quickly can't target another player's Paragon (it only targets your Personality), so Iron Will is reacting to the ability used by the Personality you moved.
Do I move home immediately, before I can take an additional action from Iron Will?
Because it involves an additional action, the exact timing of this one turns out to be... subtle.
A. Player 1 plays Strike Quickly, we fast forward to action resolution ... Effect (a): Move Personality. Effect (b): Additional action, delayed until after Strike Quickly ends. Effect (c): Move Personality home, delayed until after the action enabled by Effect (b) ends. Strike Quickly ends.
B. Player 1 takes Battle action from Personality's ability. Step 1: Announce the action Step 2: Action targets an enemy Paragon with higher PH.
C. Player 2 takes Iron Will's Reaction after targeting. We fast forward to action resolution ... Effect (a). Tells you to ignore costs and negate effects of Battle action (which haven't happened, but the effect applies in the future). Effect (b). Player 1 gets additional action, delayed until after Iron Will ends. Effect (c). Iron Will ends.
It is not clear from Zen's answer when EXACTLY Player 1 gets to take the additional battle action or not as a result of the Iron Will being played.
To explain my thinking (something Zen references in another post) because the Iron Will has negated the effects of the action taken on the personality and Strike Quickly has already created a delayed effect that moves that personality home as soon as that action ends. Which leads us to 2 possible answers to this next question. Does the additional action created by Iron Will happen before the personality is moved back home by the delayed effects of Strike Quickly?
In either case that player gets an additional battle action for certain but its use is greatly limited if they have no prescence (i.e. they had no other personality's in the battle except the one that attempted to Strike Quickly)
As an aside the non actual answering of rules queries happens a lot as simply quoting which rules apply does not always make it clear what the answer is to a question.
Thanks Az
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 24 September 2011
Does the additional action created by Iron Will happen before the personality is moved back home by the delayed effects of Strike Quickly?
Before.
The reason for this is that once you start an action, it runs through to completion (The Priority Rule; http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Timing#Priority). This is made complicated by the rules for additional actions, though, which introduce several delays. (I'd thought the timing sequence walking through those tricky timing bits answered the question, but can see in retrospect, with the nudge, that it needed the last steps made explicit. Sorry.)
Here's the breakdown of the timing, continued:
A. Player 1 plays Strike Quickly, we fast forward to action resolution ... Effect (a): Move Personality. Effect (b): Additional action, delayed until after Strike Quickly ends. Effect (c): Move Personality home, delayed until after the action enabled by Effect (b) ends. Strike Quickly ends.
B. Player 1 takes Battle action from Personality's ability. Step 1: Announce the action Step 2: Action targets an enemy Paragon with higher PH.
C. Player 2 takes Iron Will's Reaction after targeting. We fast forward to action resolution ... Effect (a). Tells you to ignore costs and negate effects of Battle action (which haven't happened, but the effect applies in the future). Effect (b). Player 1 gets additional action, delayed until after Iron Will ends. Iron Will ends, which triggers the delayed effect (b), above.
D. Player 1 uses additional action from Iron Will.
E (B, resumed). Player 1 resumes Battle action from Personality's ability (Effect (b)) Step 3: Pay costs (which are ignored due to Iron Will). Step 4: Resolve effects (which are negated due to Iron Will).
F . Player 1's Personality is moved home by delayed Effect (c) from Strike Quickly.
So I'm suddenly a little confused about how additional battle actions come into existence.
As per viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94105&p=1247132&hilit=strike+quickly#p1247132 I can take an additional battle action within the span of actually resolving a previous battle action. That is to say:
a.) Announce action A b.) Target action A c.) Iron Will action A d.) Announce Action B e.) Target Action B f.) Resolve action B g.) Resolve action A [albeit all effects are negated due to Iron Will, but for purposes of, say, RIng of Water or Thunder Dragon Bay, this happens after Action B resolves]
Is this true? If so, why?
My understanding was that "Take an additional battle action" was not the same as "take a battle action right now." Taking an additional battle action effectively put a battle action opportunity next in line for a given player, as opposed to simply taking a battle action in the middle of another action--which appears to what is happening in the current ruling.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 24 September 2011
As per viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94105&p=1247132&hilit=strike+quickly#p1247132 I can take an additional battle action within the span of actually resolving a previous battle action. That is to say:
a.) Announce action A b.) Target action A c.) Iron Will action A d.) Announce Action B (the additional one allowed by Iron WIll - ZF) e.) Target Action B f.) Resolve action B g.) Resolve action A [albeit all effects are negated due to Iron Will, but for purposes of, say, RIng of Water or Thunder Dragon Bay, this happens after Action B resolves]
Is this true?
As far as I can see, yes (assuming my clarification above is right). This is a shortened version of the timing breakdown I posted previously.
My understanding was that "Take an additional battle action" was not the same as "take a battle action right now." Taking an additional battle action effectively put a battle action opportunity next in line for a given player, as opposed to simply taking a battle action in the middle of another action--which appears to what is happening in the current ruling.
Indeed, it is explicitly stated in the rules glossary (as of this writing - we recognized in the Rules Junta discussion that have some revision to do) that this is why additional actions are delayed effects: "This makes sure that Battle actions can not occur within other Battle actions" (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Glossary_A#Additional_action).
As to "Why" this happens, I think the key word in your sentence is "effectively." You are thinking the rule is, "Move the action to the next player opportunity to take that action" - because this was what the rule usually serves to do. But the devil's in the details, and the exact wording of the timing in the rules is different.
The rule for delaying additional actions: "the timing of the additional action is delayed, such that the action is taken once the action or trait that granted it has ended". So for this particular Reaction that grants an additional action, that additional delayed action is going to pop right in after the Reaction.
As I said: That was discussion version one point zero. Going to flag this for the Rules Junta now to see if they have more to add.
Roger Giner-Sorolla (rules official), 27 September 2011
We are in fact considering whether the original rule's intent to have Battle actions not occur during other Battle actions should be honored when a Reaction creates an additional action opportunity, and this discussion has cropped up since Zen's original reply, and might lead to a reversal. Stay tuned ...
Alex Jones (rules official), 1 October 2011
The rules for "Additional actions" have been changed, in particular this paragraph: When an additional action is granted while a non-Reaction action is in progress, the timing of the additional action is delayed: the opportunity to take it happens once the current non-Reaction action has ended, and once the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action has passed. This makes sure that Battle actions can not occur within other Battle actions, or Limited/Opens within other Limited/Opens.
Thus, the additional action granted by Iron Will occurs after the resolution of the Battle action it's reacting to, rather than after the resolution of Iron Will. In the case of the additional action granted by Strike Quickly, the delayed effect "After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home," which is applied before Reactions to the end of the additional action (see Timing Sequence), will move the performer home before the opportunity for the additional action.
The rules for "Additional actions" have been changed, in particular this paragraph: When an additional action is granted while a non-Reaction action is in progress, the timing of the additional action is delayed: the opportunity to take it happens once the current non-Reaction action has ended, and once the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action has passed. This makes sure that Battle actions can not occur within other Battle actions, or Limited/Opens within other Limited/Opens.
Thus, the additional action granted by Iron Will occurs after the resolution of the Battle action it's reacting to, rather than after the resolution of Iron Will. In the case of the additional action granted by Strike Quickly, the delayed effect "After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home," which is applied before Reactions to the end of the additional action (see Timing Sequence), will move the performer home before the opportunity for the additional action.
This is a REVERSAL.
Alex
It may just be that i'm a bit dense and not quite understanding why the additional action granted by Iron Will would come after the move home from Strike Quickly.
Daigotsu XP3: Battle: Permanently give a target enemy personality with lower Chi Shadowlands. He succumbs to the Dark Lord's will. Take control of him (if you do so, he joins your army). If you now control him, destroy him after this battle ends. Iron Will: Reaction: After another player targets your Paragon with a Battle action performed by a Personality with lower Personal Honor: The action's costs are ignored and its effects are negated. That player may take an additional Battle action. Strike Quickly: Battle: If you are the Defender, choose your performing unbowed Personality: Move him to the current battefield. You may take an additional Battle action to use one of his base abilities. After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home.
scenario that i'm looking at is that i'm trying to move in with Daigotsu xp3 and take one of the attacking lion paragons. The paragon uses iron will to cancel the action. so we have daigotu's action, iron will canceling it upon targeting which is in step "B. Explicit performing and required targeting" of an action. So after Iron will resolves we'd go back to Daigotsu's action, negate the costs which also negates the effect. Now at the end of Daigotsu's action, we have 2 static text, one saying that "After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home," and one that says "That player may take an additional Battle action."
Does this not mean that the active player would get to choose which happens first based upon the Timing Sequence?
The additional action from Iron Will would no longer be considered a reaction since the reaction took place during the targeting sequence of Daigotsu's action and would be a delayed effect just like the move home from Strike Quickly would be a delayed effect, yes?
Timing sequence: B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen.
Alex Jones (rules official), 2 October 2011
Now at the end of Daigotsu's action, we have 2 static text, one saying that "After the additional action ends, or you choose not to take it, move him home," and one that says "That player may take an additional Battle action."
Does this not mean that the active player would get to choose which happens first based upon the Timing Sequence?
No, because of the Additional action rules: When an additional action is granted while a non-Reaction action is in progress, the timing of the additional action is delayed: the opportunity to take it happens once the current non-Reaction action has ended, and once the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action has passed. This makes sure that Battle actions can not occur within other Battle actions, or Limited/Opens within other Limited/Opens.
The performer of Strike Quickly moves home in Step B of the Timing Sequence, for effects/traits triggered by the additional action granted by Strike Quickly; the additional action granted by Iron Will is taken after Step C, for Reactions triggered by that additional action.