Hidden Moon Dojo/The Forgotten Temple

L5R CCG Rules board, 11 July 2011 to 12 July 2011

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 11 July 2011

Ninjas versus monsters. I watched this in an anime!

Hidden Moon Dojo Open: Look at all face-down cards in a target player's provinces. If you destroy a province this turn, its owner will not refill provinces during his next Action Phase.

The Forgotten Temple Limited: Target your discarded Nonhuman Personality and discard a card in one of your provinces: Refill the province face-up with the Personality.

Never Stand Alone Limited: Target a discarded (not dead) Personality you own. Put the Personality face-up in one of your provinces, discarding a card from it if necessary.

Let's assume that the Scorpion player has done everything necessary to trigger the "will not refill" clause of his stronghold's ability. The way the Hidden Moon Dojo effect works has been fairly well discussed. However, it has also been established that not all effects that cause a new card to appear in a province constitute refilling for the purposes of the effect. This ruling regarding Hidden Moon Dojo's interactions with Never Stand Alone, for example: "putting a card into a province from the discard pile" is not "refilling". On the other hand, although Forgotten Temple's action is very like Never Stand Alone, they are worded differently, with the nonhuman stronghold explicitly using the verb "refill" for a card relocation process otherwise visually identical to the earlier "putting."

If a Forgotten Temple player uses his stronghold action while under the effects of the Hidden Moon Dojo action, what happens? Does the discarded nonhuman go in the province (as it would via Never Stand Alone), ignoring the Hidden Moon Dojo effect? Or does the Scorpion stronghold prevent that; if so, after the Action phase, when Hidden Moon Dojo is no longer in effect, what card does refill that province? Is it the one that Forgotten Temple targeted? And, if it is, does it refill face-up?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 12 July 2011

Ninjas versus monsters. I watched this in an anime!

Hidden Moon Dojo Open: Look at all face-down cards in a target player's provinces. If you destroy a province this turn, its owner will not refill provinces during his next Action Phase.

The Forgotten Temple Limited: Target your discarded Nonhuman Personality and discard a card in one of your provinces: Refill the province face-up with the Personality.

Never Stand Alone Limited: Target a discarded (not dead) Personality you own. Put the Personality face-up in one of your provinces, discarding a card from it if necessary.

Let's assume that the Scorpion player has done everything necessary to trigger the "will not refill" clause of his stronghold's ability. The way the Hidden Moon Dojo effect works has been fairly well discussed. However, it has also been established that not all effects that cause a new card to appear in a province constitute refilling for the purposes of the effect. This ruling regarding Hidden Moon Dojo's interactions with Never Stand Alone, for example: "putting a card into a province from the discard pile" is not "refilling". On the other hand, although Forgotten Temple's action is very like Never Stand Alone, they are worded differently, with the nonhuman stronghold explicitly using the verb "refill" for a card relocation process otherwise visually identical to the earlier "putting."

If a Forgotten Temple player uses his stronghold action while under the effects of the Hidden Moon Dojo action, what happens? Does the discarded nonhuman go in the province (as it would via Never Stand Alone), ignoring the Hidden Moon Dojo effect? Or does the Scorpion stronghold prevent that; if so, after the Action phase, when Hidden Moon Dojo is no longer in effect, what card does refill that province? Is it the one that Forgotten Temple targeted? And, if it is, does it refill face-up?

As you said, Forgotten Temple explicitly uses the word "refill". While its effects are similar to Never Stand Alone, because of this very distinction, Hidden Moon Dojo's effects WILL prevent The Forgotten Temple's ability from refilling the province face-up with the Personality you targeted. It will refill normally, face-down with the top card of your Dynasty deck, after the Action Phase ends.