Ebisu's Honesty + Destructive Priorities

L5R CCG Rules board, 7 July 2011 to 8 July 2011

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 7 July 2011

I have in play: Destructive Priorities, Ebisu's Honesty, and a courtier. If I use the limited ability on Ebisu's Honesty to blow up a province and gain 4 honour, can I bow my courtier to negate the gain (which fails) but still cause my opponent to lose 2 honour? It looks like negating the gain is an effect not a cost.

Destructive Priorities: You have the ability, "Political Reaction: Before you gain Honor during your turn, bow your performing Courtier: Negate the gain. Choose a player. He loses 2 Honor."

Ebisu's Honesty: Limited: Destroy your rightmost province and discard this card. Gain 4 Honor, this gain will not be negated.

Thank you

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 7 July 2011

I have in play: Destructive Priorities, Ebisu's Honesty, and a courtier. If I use the limited ability on Ebisu's Honesty to blow up a province and gain 4 honour, can I bow my courtier to negate the gain (which fails) but still cause my opponent to lose 2 honour? It looks like negating the gain is an effect not a cost.

Yes, you may do that, for the reason you stated.

Thank you

You're quite welcome.

A player, 8 July 2011

A follow up to http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=92266

Does it follow that any action to gain honour, even if it is negated by something else first, is enough to trigger Destructive Priorities? For example, I use Oyo Seido to gain 2, react with Only Actions Speak to negate the gain, and react with Destructive Priorities to cause an honour loss? What about Deeds and Words instead of OAS?

Only Actions Speak: Reaction: After an action is announced: Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution. At that time if this negated any gains, negate all Honor gains until the end of this phase and draw a card.

Deeds and Words: Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor during the Action Phase, destroy this card: Reduce the gain or loss to 0.

Destructive Priorities: You have the ability, "Political Reaction: Before you gain Honor during your turn, bow your performing Courtier: Negate the gain. Choose a player. He loses 2 Honor."

Thank you

Alex Jones (rules official), 8 July 2011

A follow up to http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=92266

Does it follow that any action to gain honour, even if it is negated by something else first, is enough to trigger Destructive Priorities? For example, I use Oyo Seido to gain 2, react with Only Actions Speak to negate the gain, and react with Destructive Priorities to cause an honour loss? What about Deeds and Words instead of OAS?

Only Actions Speak: Reaction: After an action is announced: Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution. At that time if this negated any gains, negate all Honor gains until the end of this phase and draw a card.

Deeds and Words: Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor during the Action Phase, destroy this card: Reduce the gain or loss to 0.

Destructive Priorities: You have the ability, "Political Reaction: Before you gain Honor during your turn, bow your performing Courtier: Negate the gain. Choose a player. He loses 2 Honor."

Thank you

No, because of the Timing Sequence.

Only Actions Speak reacts to the announcement of an action, creating an ongoing effect; ongoing effects that negate effects are resolved in Step A. Destructive Priorities and Deeds and Words react to an actual gain or loss; reactions that are triggered by an effect are resolved in Step C.

Furthermore, note this paragraph: The reduction of a change to a number to zero (for example, reducing a loss, gain, bonus or penalty) by a non-Reaction effect timed “before” the loss or gain has a special interaction with these timing rules. Such a reduction is not a negation or prevention, so it is not applied at step A. It is instead applied at step B. During step B, even if the reduction has taken the change to zero, other effects may be triggered by the loss or gain. Once step B is over, if the change is zero, it is not treated as a change of that type for triggering reactions in step C, or for triggers at later timing points.

Thus, for Only Actions Speak & Destructive Priorities vs Oyo Seido, Only Actions Speak is played in reaction to the announcement of the Oyo Seido action, and negates the honour gain before it happens, in Step A; by Step C, when Destructive Priorities' ability might trigger, there is no honour gain so Destructive Priorities may not be used.

For Deeds and Words & Destructive Priorities vs Oyo Seido, both Reactions trigger in Step C, and both of them cause the upcoming honour gain to be considered not to be an honour gain; after one of these is taken, the other may not. Note that the active player has the first opportunity to take a Reaction.