Scars of War vs Peddler/others

L5R CCG Rules board, 25 June 2011 to 28 June 2011

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 25 June 2011

Scars of War:

Limited: Bow your performing Courtier and target a Holding: Until the game ends, after each time it bows or an ability on it resolves, its controller loses 1 Honor.

Traveling Peddler:

Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold. Limited: Bow this card and pay 3 Gold: Draw a card.

Say player A targeted player B's Traveling Peddler with Scars of War, cost paid and all.

On player B's turn, they decide to use the ability to draw a card, paying it's 3 gold cost and all. Why would player B be losing two honor if Scars of War says "or". Does the "or" mean both? Because normal cards now days would say both. Or usually means one or the other, not both. I'm just wondering, thanks.

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 25 June 2011

Player A targeted player B's Traveling Peddler with Scars of War, cost paid and all. On player B's turn, they decide to use the ability to draw a card, paying it's 3 gold cost and all. Why would player B be losing two honor if Scars of War says "or". Does the "or" mean both?

It means it can be fulfilled by either condition. This is just regular English use of "or".

Because normal cards now days would say both.

If there is a particular rule in the wiki you're thinking of, a link or quote from it would help to track down the answer.

A player, 27 June 2011

So I saw this response, and I think I understand the OP/Zens miscommunication here.

The reason a Scars of War causes two honor loss when something like a previously targeted Traveling Peddler's ability is activated is because it triggers to two different things, Either bowing, or ability resolution, and it triggers "each time" either of those things occurs.

From the sequence of play these two triggers are always going to occur at different points, and while OP is correct in that if both triggers happened simultaneously only one honor would be lost. That effectively never happens, even supposing some effect to "bow a holding after one of it's abilities resolves" was present in the game state, due to the timing resolution steps.

The reason for this is because each trigger is seperate. In the case of Peddler, you pay costs (bow the holding) before Action Resolution can even begin to occur. So Scars of War generates one Honor Loss when a Traveling Peddler bows to pay the cost of it's ability, and it generates a seperate one Honor Loss later after the ability resolves, per the "each time" text of Scars of War.

Alex Jones (rules official), 28 June 2011

So I saw this response, and I think I understand the OP/Zens miscommunication here.

The reason a Scars of War causes two honor loss when something like a previously targeted Traveling Peddler's ability is activated is because it triggers to two different things, Either bowing, or ability resolution, and it triggers "each time" either of those things occurs.

From the sequence of play these two triggers are always going to occur at different points, and while OP is correct in that if both triggers happened simultaneously only one honor would be lost. That effectively never happens, even supposing some effect to "bow a holding after one of it's abilities resolves" was present in the game state, due to the timing resolution steps.

The reason for this is because each trigger is seperate. In the case of Peddler, you pay costs (bow the holding) before Action Resolution can even begin to occur. So Scars of War generates one Honor Loss when a Traveling Peddler bows to pay the cost of it's ability, and it generates a seperate one Honor Loss later after the ability resolves, per the "each time" text of Scars of War.

Indeed, as stated here.