Doji Shigeyuki vs Hida Hachimoto

Doji Shigeyuki's effect states both personalities involved in his duel use their personal honour as their duel stat, while Hida Hachimoto's trait specifies he uses his base force as his duel stat. Which of the two would override the other? Would the action beat out the trait?

Shigeyuki: Battle: Target a Personality with lower Personal Honor than Shigeyuki's Chi: Shigeyuki challenges him. He may refuse; if he does, move him home. Both Personalities use their Personal Honor as their duel stat. Bow the duel's loser's unit.

Hachimoto: Hachimoto uses his base Force as his duel stat.

Thanks!

With regard to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=91312

I have some difficulty understanding the application of the timing sequence rules to the given situation, specifically the following 2 issues:

1) The rules for Timing Sequence say "If two or more reactions, triggered traits, or rules procedures are triggered at the same point in time, follow this sequence from A through C to decide their order. " I don't see how Hida Hachimoto's trait qualifies as a "reaction, triggered trait, or rules procedure". The best stretch of my imagination might say that "determining the duel stat" is a rules procedure, and somehow the continuous effect from Hachimoto's trait and the (ongoing?) effect of Shigeyuki that defines the duel stat are considered to "trigger" at the same time.

2) If that is the case, that the two abilities are considered to "trigger" at the same time, then my follow-up question is - What is that time? Specifically, if Shigeyuki uses his battle action targetting Hachimoto, at what point in the process does the active player choose which duel stat to apply? Upon targetting? Upon acceptance? or some other time? What is the specific point in time where these two conflicting effects trigger?

If I may, I believe this particular interaction may make more sense under the rules structure found in "Continuous Effects"

If another effect reverses or modifies the continuous effect, the continuous effect does not automatically re-assert itself. Only if the continuous effect ends and begins again, or when the other effect ends, would the continuous effect begin. Example: An effect on one of your Holdings in play states “Your Human Personalities are Samurai while they are opposed.” If another effect removes the Samurai keyword from one of these opposed Personalities, your card’s effect does not give him back Samurai immediately...

Hida Hachimoto's trait is a continuous effect. Doji Shigeyuki's battle action is "another effect {that} reverses or modifies the continuous effect". As such, Shigeyuki's effect prevails until it expires, at which time Hachimoto's continuous effect will re-assert itself. I see this as being a strong parallel with the example provided in the comp rules above, while I find difficulty finding parallel with the Timing Sequence rules.

Thank you for your consideration.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=91312 Zen posted: "The continuous effect from Hachimoto's trait is active before the ongoing effect created by Shigeyuki's action. Shigeyuki then modifies the trait, so the duel stats becomes Personal Honor for both in this case."

Since Shigeyuki's action's ongoing effect being referenced is "Both Personalities use their Personal Honor as their duel stat." and there is no time limit included in this effect, does that mean that both personalities use their Personal Honor as their duel stat in any subsequent duels in the same turn? If Hida Benjiro (Experienced 2) uses his Battle action "Battle: Benjiro challenges a target enemy Personality. Both Personalities use their Force as their duel stat. Destroy the duel's loser.", is he then able to issue duels with Steel on Steel/Enough Talk/etc and use his current force as his duel stat due to his ongoing effect?

I saw this, and I thought I had posted a message about it back on the 12th, but that post seems to have been lost.

My take on the situation is that the text on Shigeyuki is a specification of the duel, rather than an effect of the action. Much like, effects that cannot be negated apply at all times, or an effect that specifies a Force Bonus isn't giving a +0 bonus and then modifying it up to the specified value, the specification of duel stat is an atomic part of the effect, not a seperate change to the game stat. Shigeyuki's text isn't changing the game state here; it is specifying the parameters of the duel, essentially defining the game state for this rules procedure. The only reason other duels don't need to do this is because most other duels game state default to the rulebook's "use Chi". Just because the rule book hides the text on the card, should not mean that when the text cannot be hidden by the rulebook(because it isn't the "default" value), that is somehow an effect that is changing the game state.

Creating a timing conflict for something that defines the game state of a rulebook procedure seems like over-thinking the problem. Shigeyuki's text "Both Personalities use their Personal Honor as their duel stat." doesn't even use the word change, and my contention is it shouldn't have to. This action creates a duel of Personal Honor. Which Hachimoto's Trait then switches to his Base Force, per the rules on continuous traits. With no timing conflict resolution necessary.

If it didn't work that way then I would argue that Hachimoto's trait never does anything. Because every duel specifies a duel stat, it is just that most of them are activating that effect from the rulebook instead of card text. An effect whether generated from card text or the rule book must be applied the same way in all circumstances, no?

Hopefully, what ever the wording change the rules guys are working on takes this into account. Because it seems unintuitive if non-chi duels override Hachimoto's trait. while duels of Chi would not, simply by virtue of the fact that they don't need card text to specify a duel stat.

Edited - for clarity...

I saw it was argued that if Hachimoto's trait doesn't power through an effect that specifies what to use as a duel stat, than it would never work at all because duels in general say 'use chi' as their rulebook definition.

But... in the rules, nowhere in 'duel' or 'challenge' does it say that anything is shorthand for 'Both personalities use their Chi as their duel stat', as someone had implied. It simply says chi is the default duel stat, but effects may change which stat to use. And since Shigeyuki's effect is changing the stat to use, it would fall under the rules for how actions interact with traits that produce ongoing effects, meaning hachimoto gets to use his ph for the duel til the end of the action... I'd think. Just my two cents, would like the rules team to jump in though.

Also, I don't really think the line of Hachimoto never doing anything would come into play, his wording is the exact same as the effect of the challenge printed on Shigeyuki. 'XXX uses his/their XXX as his/their duel stat.' Both are specifying which stat to use, and one is an action opposed to an ongoing trait, so yeah. The rules dont specify to use chi in the same manner of wording, I dont see how Hachimoto would be overridden by them.

Any follow up on this since the 20th?

I am not sure which timing argument is accurate since 2 have been presented. One saying the honor duel trumps the force trait. But more importantly, what then happens under future duels also.

with the new ruling added to duel stat today august 2nd, just had a small question.

was that rule newly created or was it based on something that was in the rules before, just harder to find?