Stronghold gold production

http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_types#Stronghold

"Stronghold Immunity: Effects and costs will not change the game state of a Stronghold, and actions and traits may not target a Stronghold, unless they specifically mention the word "Stronghold," or come from the Stronghold itself. [CLARIFIED 28 Jan 10]"

Is gold production from a stronghold considered a game state? If, for example, my Stronghold was a Farm and I had a Region in play that increased the gold production of all Farms, would my stronghold benefit from this?

Thanks, Mark

Say my stronghold is a farm and I have a holding that states "All farms you control produce 1 additional gold when paying for a card" Now I'm bowing my stronghold to pay for a personality. Would my stronghold produce an additional gold? I'm not changing the state of my stronghold as far as I can tell from what I've tried to find in the rules wiki and in this rules forum. I'm changing an effect that has already been produce or is in the process of being produced by my changing of the state of my stronghold (bowing to produce gold). The effect of the holding is changing an effect and not the stronghold itself.

The simple problem being that the clause "game state" is not defined in the rules.

http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_types#Stronghold Stronghold

A Stronghold represents a player's base of power. It is represented by a Stronghold card, or an object incorporating a Stronghold card.

The Stronghold does not go into the Fate or Dynasty decks. The player starts with one Stronghold in play in his or her home face-up.

Stronghold Immunity: Effects and costs will not change the game state of a Stronghold, and actions and traits may not target a Stronghold, unless they specifically mention the word "Stronghold," or come from the Stronghold itself. [CLARIFIED 28 Jan 10] Example 1: An effect that says: "Name a card. Abilities on cards with that title can not be used" does not apply to Strongholds because it changes the game state of the Stronghold. Example 2: A Reaction trigger states "After an effect from another player's card bows one of your cards:" This can be used in reaction to another player's Stronghold ability because it does not change the game state of the Stronghold itself. It can also be used in reaction to another player bowing your Stronghold, because the reference itself is not an effect, targeting or cost. Example 3: An effect on a non-Stronghold card says “Destroy your target Temple: Bow a target card.” This cannot target or destroy a Stronghold with the Temple keyword, and the bowed “card” also cannot be a Stronghold. Example 4: Your Stronghold has the Port keyword. A trait that says "Produce 1 Gold for each Port you control" would count the Stronghold because it does not target or change the game state of your Stronghold.

This is the only thing I have found for what defines a "game state" viewtopic.php?f=59&t=74119&hilit=game+state

Post by Zen Faulkes » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:59 am

estel wrote:What must an action do to cause a "change in the game state" as defined as being a successful action?

Basically, something must happen. You must change something on the table. There is probably no way to do an exhaustive list, but this would include bowed state, honorable state, bonuses, tokens, created cards, etc. If you didn't have to reach down and touch a card to change anything, it probably wasn't successful. This is just a rough and ready pass at this, but should do for most cases.

Cards and card text are below for reference.

Will Forests of Shinomen affect the gold production of the stronghold Heart of the Shinomen Forest as per legacy rules the Heart of the Shinomen Forest is also a forest card?

I believe it can because it's affecting the affect of "When paying a Gold cost, a player may bow his or her Stronghold as a cost to produce Gold equal to the Stronghold’s Gold Production." which seems to me to be an old wording. Can it effectively be translated to the new wording of holdings? “When paying a Gold cost, bow this card: Produce X Gold.” I believe it should be able to without a problem.

Now we have lots of strongholds that do different things with battle actions, open actions, etc. I'd like to first compare it to Kyuden Suzume's battle action. If the personality Moshi Kazue was in the battle, and you used Kyuden Suzume's battle action, you could react with Moshi Kazue to increase the ranged strike. Other than that Kyuden Suzume's ability is an action and not a rulebook trait, I don't see why something that affects gold production would not affect the effect of the gold producing trait. If static text cannot affect the effect of something that the stronghold is doing, does this not also mean that other actions (ie. reactions) could also not affect the effect of a stronghold's ability or text assuming neither the static text nor the action had any text to override stronghold immunity.

With the Forests of Shinomen, you're also not affecting the stronghold itself there is no changing of any stat on the stronghold. The effect of Forests of Shinomen will affect the actual production of gold. As such the Forests of Shinomen would be affecting the effect of a trait, not the actual stronghold. Which goes back to: if you can't affect the effect of the stronghold, then basically you can't react to any stronghold's action that would affect the action.

http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_types#Stronghold

Gold-producing holdings often have traits written as “Bow this card: Produce X Gold” which is shorthand for, “When paying a Gold cost, bow this card: Produce X Gold.”

http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_types#Holdings

Gold Production: The middle of your Stronghold’s three numbers is its Gold Production. It represents the starting wealth and influence of the player. When paying a Gold cost, a player may bow his or her Stronghold as a cost to produce Gold equal to the Stronghold’s Gold Production.

Heart of the Shinomen Forest Clan Naga Text Your Nagas are immune to Fear. You may ignore Honor Requirements for Nagas if you have no Shadowlands cards in play. You may have up to 4 of any non-unique Naga card. You may put forests into play for 3 less gold. Honor 3 Gold 3 Strength 5

Forests of Shinomen Forest Negate the effects of Ranged Attacks during a battle at this province's battlefield. When one of your Forests is paying for a Nonhuman card: It produces one additional Gold.

Moshi Kazue Clan Mantis Text Mantis Clan • Thunder • Shugenja • Naval Reaction: After a Ranged Attack targets a card: Give the Ranged Attack +1 strength.

Kyuden Suzume Clan Spider Text You do not lose Honour from Spider Clan and Fate cards you own. Battle: Even if this card is bowed, choose your performing unbowed Personality, and discard a card: Ranged Attack with strength equal to his Force. If you discarded a Weapon or Kiho, and this card is unbowed, draw a card. Honor 0 Gold 4 Strength 8

From the ruling from viewtopic.php?p=1209209#p1209209 I take it that this ruling also means that since I can't affect a stronghold, then I can't increase, reduce, or otherwise affect the action that a stronghold is providing the action for? For example the range strike from Kyuden Suzume wouldn't be able to be Increased, decreased, imperial comanded etc. since it would change the effect of the stronghold?

edit:

The reason I'm looking at is simple. Reducing down the text of both abilities ends up being. Stronghold (Rulebook) trait: bow stronghold : produce X gold. Stronghold (Kyuden Suzume) battle: target personality : Range strike w/ personalities force.

If you can't increase the gold because it's affecting the stronghold, then you shouldn't be able to change targets, increase, decrease or otherwise negate the range strike.

From what I can see and how abilities/traits are done, then these rulings should be the same.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=91045

Regarding the above topic, does the restriction apply to costs?

i.e. If I have any ability with 'Bow your Farm' as a cost, and my stronghold is a Farm, can I bow my stronghold to pay the cost?