A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Seppun Horai
0F 2C - 3 2 Samurai • Bureaucrat • Imperial Reaction: When paying for a farm, bow Horai: Produce 4 Gold.
Heartlands
Region Farm • Singular Limited: Pay 3 Gold: Create a 1F/1C/1PH Personality with your Clan alignment.
Farmlands
Region Farm • Singular Limited: Pay 2 Gold: Create a 1F Follower and attach it to your target Personality.
Question: Can I use Seppun Horai to pay the gold cost on the limited actions of the regions Heartlands or farmlands?
Can I use Seppun Horai to pay the gold cost on the limited actions of the regions Heartlands or farmlands?
No. Cost of actions are not costs of holdings.
In responding to this, Zen ruled that Seppun Horai cannot pay for the actions on Heartlands or Farmlands because "[c]cost[s] of actions are not costs of holdings." That is true, but I am not certain it is the controlling rule in this case.
Seppun Horai does not pay for a Farm Holding; he pays for a Farm ("When paying for a Farm, bow Horai: Produce 4 Gold"). According to the Comprehensive Rules on Abilities, "An ability also has any keywords that are on its card. Example: An ability on a Ninja card is a Ninja ability." There are a number of exceptions (no parallel inheritance from other actions; no inheritance from color text, reminder text, embedded text, etc.), but none of them appear to apply here.
Both Heartlands and Farmlands have the Farm keyword. Therefore, the actions on both cards are Farm abilities. Horai does not appear to have any restriction as to what manner of Farm he may pay for, so long as what he is paying for has the Farm keyword. Is there any reason this could not apply to Farm abilities as well as the more frequently considered Farm Holdings?
EDIT: So far as I can tell, Seppun Horai's situation is virtually unique. With one potential exception, all other cards with the "when paying for" templating, going back as far as the Lotus arc, either specify that they are paying for a "card", or refer to their criterion in a manner that does not involve keywords ("a Spell", "an Item", "an attachment", and so on). The sole situation that might be even remotely analogous to Horai/Farmlands involves Lotus-era cards:
Harmonious Temple (Khan's Defiance) 2GC Temple Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold, or 3 Gold when paying for a Monk. Battle: Target one of your Monks at the current battlefield and bow one of your Rings: Ranged 4 Attack.
Kitsuki Raichi (Code of Bushido) 3F 3C / 4HR 7GC 3PH Dragon Clan Samurai • Monk Limited: Once per turn, pay 2 Gold: Play an Action card that is under your Stronghold for one of its Limited or Open actions, paying all costs.
Harmonious Temple does not specify a Monk Personality or a Monk card. Kitsuki Raichi appears to be the only card (Lotus or more recent) with the Monk keyword and an ability with a gold cost. By the rule for keywords and abilities, which has not functionally changed since before Lotus, Raichi's Limited action is a Monk ability, and may therefore be eligible for Harmonious Temple's increased gold production -- not that it matters, since the Temple would pay for Raichi's ability's cost in either case.
That's the closest I can find to a parallel situation to offer further guidance.
EDIT 2: Or not.
In responding to this, Zen ruled that Seppun Horai cannot pay for the actions on Heartlands or Farmlands because "[c]cost[s] of actions are not costs of holdings." That is true, but I am not certain it is the controlling rule in this case.
Seppun Horai does not pay for a Farm Holding; he pays for a Farm ("When paying for a Farm, bow Horai: Produce 4 Gold"). According to the Comprehensive Rules on Abilities, "An ability also has any keywords that are on its card. Example: An ability on a Ninja card is a Ninja ability." There are a number of exceptions (no parallel inheritance from other actions; no inheritance from color text, reminder text, embedded text, etc.), but none of them appear to apply here.
Both Heartlands and Farmlands have the Farm keyword. Therefore, the actions on both cards are Farm abilities. Horai does not appear to have any restriction as to what manner of Farm he may pay for, so long as what he is paying for has the Farm keyword. Is there any reason this could not apply to Farm abilities as well as the more frequently considered Farm Holdings?
EDIT: So far as I can tell, Seppun Horai's situation is virtually unique. With one potential exception, all other cards with the "when paying for" templating, going back as far as the Lotus arc, either specify that they are paying for a "card", or refer to their criterion in a manner that does not involve keywords ("a Spell", "an Item", "an attachment", and so on). The sole situation that might be even remotely analogous to Horai/Farmlands involves Lotus-era cards:
Harmonious Temple (Khan's Defiance) 2GC Temple Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold, or 3 Gold when paying for a Monk. Battle: Target one of your Monks at the current battlefield and bow one of your Rings: Ranged 4 Attack.
Kitsuki Raichi (Code of Bushido) 3F 3C / 4HR 7GC 3PH Dragon Clan Samurai • Monk Limited: Once per turn, pay 2 Gold: Play an Action card that is under your Stronghold for one of its Limited or Open actions, paying all costs.
Harmonious Temple does not specify a Monk Personality or a Monk card. Kitsuki Raichi appears to be the only card (Lotus or more recent) with the Monk keyword and an ability with a gold cost. By the rule for keywords and abilities, which has not functionally changed since before Lotus, Raichi's Limited action is a Monk ability, and may therefore be eligible for Harmonious Temple's increased gold production -- not that it matters, since the Temple would pay for Raichi's ability's cost in either case.
That's the closest I can find to a parallel situation to offer further guidance.
EDIT 2: Or not.
A Farm ability is not a Farm, in the same way that farm animals are not a farm.
"This pays for a Farm." Here, Farm is as a noun: a particular thing.
"This card has a Farm ability." Here, Farm is an adjective, modifying the noun "ability."
There is no rule that something that refers to a keyword as a noun will also pay for an ability with that keyword.
With all defference to Zen's rulling here.
"Fertile Plain" is a Holding (the noun) with the Farm keyword (a descriptive attribute). Likewise, by rule: the ability(also a noun) on Heartlands is an ability with the Farm keyword. As with the original poster, I fail to see why one noun (a card in play) is any better than the other noun (an ability on a card in play) with regard to the rules, when Seppun Horai's ability does not make that distinction, and nothing in the rules makes that distinction either.
The ability on Seppun Horai, does not say it pays for a "farm card", it says it pays for a "farm". Both actions and cards are things(nouns) that can be paid for, and can have the "Farm" keyword, and thus be respectively Farm Cards, and Farm Actions, or "Farms" collectively.
Keywords A card’s keyword is a phrase of one or more words that usually appears at the top of a card’s text box, above a dividing line. ... Some keywords have meaning in the rules, while others are only descriptive terms.
That sure sounds like they are Adjectives to me...
Ability keywords: An ability has any boldface keywords that appear immediately before its designator.... A card has any keywords of its abilities.... An ability also has any keywords that are on its card....
I absolutely agree that the intent of Seppun Horai is to pay for cards and not actions, unfotrunately, he just doesn't say he is limited to cards, just Farms...
With all defference to Zen's rulling here.
"Fertile Plain" is a Holding (the noun) with the Farm keyword (a descriptive attribute). Likewise, by rule: the ability(also a noun) on Heartlands is an ability with the Farm keyword. As with the original poster, I fail to see why one noun (a card in play) is any better than the other noun (an ability on a card in play) with regard to the rules, when Seppun Horai's ability does not make that distinction, and nothing in the rules makes that distinction either.
The ability on Seppun Horai, does not say it pays for a "farm card", it says it pays for a "farm". Both actions and cards are things(nouns) that can be paid for, and can have the "Farm" keyword, and thus be respectively Farm Cards, and Farm Actions, or "Farms" collectively.
That sure sounds like they are Adjectives to me...
I absolutely agree that the intent of Seppun Horai is to pay for cards and not actions, unfotrunately, he just doesn't say he is limited to cards, just Farms...
Under discussion.
Got a Kotei coming up this weekend and I was wondering if there's been any resolution regarding this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90009 ?
Got a Kotei coming up this weekend and I was wondering if there's been any resolution regarding this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90009 ?
The previous ruling has been reversed.
coming from: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90009#p1201475
That sound a lot like a yes, but just to be sure and avoid missunderstandings, can we get a clear answer on this?
coming from: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90009#p1201475
That sound a lot like a yes, but just to be sure and avoid missunderstandings, can we get a clear answer on this?
That is correct. The "No" in the first post is now a yes."
Given the new ruling in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=90009
Does this mean that Seiden Sanzo can be used to produce 3 gold to pay the cost of an action on a Hero personality, or Spider Cultist for an action on an Oni Personality? And that Senseki Province can be used to pay the gold cost of an action on a Follower?
I'm thinking yes for Hero and Oni, because an action on a Hero is a "Hero action". But I don't know if an action on a follower a "Follower action"
Does this mean that Seiden Sanzo can be used to produce 3 gold to pay the cost of an action on a Hero personality, or Spider Cultist for an action on an Oni Personality?
Yes.
And that Senseki Province can be used to pay the gold cost of an action on a Follower?
No. Card types do not give keywords to abilities; see: http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_features#Abilities