Faint Praise vs Kakita Okirou

Hi all,

My opponent play a Faint Praise during my action phase. I control a Kakita Okirou and use it open action. Then, I gain some honor by an action or an entering play. Could I choose to resolved the Faint Praise effect first? If yes, does the Okirou effect negates this loss?

Faint Praise Open: Before the next time this turn a player gains Honor during his Dynasty Phase or from one of his own actions, he loses that amount of Honor instead of gaining it.

Kakita Okirou Open: Discard a card: Before the next time this turn a target player gains or loses Honor, reduce the loss or gain by the Focus Value of the discarded card.

Just to know: have you an answer now to this question or is it yet under discussion?

Thanks in advance.

See Timing Sequence.

Both Kakita Okirou and Faint Praise create delayed effects which trigger at step B. As the active player, you decide which is applied first. You may indeed decide to apply Faint Praise's effect first, turning an honour gain into a loss, and then apply Okirou's effect, reducing that loss.

Follow up to this.

As active player, if I gain honor after my opponnent played Faint Praise (during my action phase) and after I used Kakita Okirou's Open action (during my action phase), I can choose the order of application of both delayed effects. The case "I choose to resolve Faint Praise's effect then Kakita Okirou's" has been solved.

Now I choose to apply Kakita Okirou's effect then Faint Praise's, according that the honor gain will then be reduced to zero. Will Faint Praise effect apply and turn the "gain of zero" in a "loss of zero"? It seems to me that the trigger has been matched, the delayed effect must be applied anyway and will not be triggered later.

Still under Faint Praise's effect, when I use My Father's Shrine Limited action paying the cost with a dishonorable personnality, as active player I can choose to apply the rulebook effect to rehonor my personnality - so my gain will be reduced to zero - before appling Faint Praise's delayed effect . Is Faint Praise's effect applied anyway? According to rules triggered rulebook effects and delayed effects apply at the same point, so theses situations are very similar indeed.

Thank you for your explanations about this point.

***

Faint Praise Open: Before the next time this turn a player gains Honor during his Dynasty Phase or from one of his own actions, he loses that amount of Honor instead of gaining it.

Kakita Okirou Open: Discard a card: Before the next time this turn a target player gains or loses Honor, reduce the loss or gain by the Focus Value of the discarded card.

My Father's shrine Limited: Bow your target Personality: Gain 1 Honor.

Apologies for the long delays on this!

Actually, I thought that the CR had been clarified a while ago to deal with the timing issues brought up by these questions, but I discovered to my dismay that this had been left undone. So...

The current rule is now this:

Timing Sequence: "The order of resolution means that triggered effects that come first, due to the above order, the order of Reactions, or the active player’s decision, can negate or otherwise make impossible triggered effects and Reactions that come later. When this happens, Reactions to the now nonexistent trigger may not be taken, and other effects are not triggered by it."

So, simultaneously timed triggered effects like Faint Praise and Okirou (both timed to effect an Honor gain before it occurs) can cause each other not to fail, depending on the choices of the order of their triggering by the Active Player.

Thus, if the AP chooses Okirou to tigger and lower the amount of an honor gain to zero, Faint Praise will remain un-triggered (as a gain, once reduced to zero, is no longer an "Honor gain").

Again, sorry for your wait. I did think this was already handled.

(And, may I say, despite the cut-and-paste from the other question I just answered identical to this, the apology is sincere. )

So I was looking at this. And as I pointed out in linked thread. Based on the Timing sequence

Timing Sequence A. Apply any ongoing, continuous, or triggered effects that negate, prevent, or substitute the occurrence that defines the trigger, making the occurrence not happen in the first place. B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed).

Akodo Gilador stated that Faint Praise (Open: Before the next time this turn a player gains Honor during his Dynasty Phase or from one of his own actions, he loses that amount of Honor instead of gaining it.) occurs at step B. But based on the definition of Substitution

Substitution “X instead (of Y)” refers to the substitution of an old targeting, effect, choice, cost, or other game element (Y) with a new one (X). The following rules refer to any use of "instead" or "instead of."

Wouldn't it occur in Step A? Therefore not conflict with Kakita Okirou (Open: Discard a card: Before the next time this turn a target player gains or loses Honor, reduce the loss or gain by the Focus Value of the discarded card.), which happens in step B. Thus active player doesn't get a choice on this as <in my best raspy Darth Vader Voice> "there is no conflict."

Thus the sequence should always be 1) Honor Gain 2) Apply Faint Praise delayed effect 3) Appply Kakita Okirou delayed effect

Under discussion.