A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 20 January 2011
Since the announcement has disappeared, I think it's ok to ask about TDoW, right?
A personality with the (unbowed) Armor of the Loyal Son receives a chi penalty token which unfortunately reduces his chi to 0 (all the chi penalties come from tokens). The trait is triggered, destroys a personality, and the death is negated until the end of the turn (due to negation now being an ongoing effect that lasts until the end of turn unless stated otherwise)
If, at the end of the turn, the armor is unbowed, what happens? a) Negation ceases, chi 0 is checked and the personality with the armor dies because the turn ends and the negation can't save him now. (Perhaps killing him somewhat in a limbo between turns?) b) Negation ceases, chi 0 is checked over and over and triggers the trait again, again and again until it can't negate anymore and the personality is destroyed (perhaps killing everything in that player's side) because each negation effect ends right after it's applied but it doesn't stop the trait from triggering again. c) The trait is triggered only once at the beginning of each turn, destroying a personality every turn until the armor begins a turn bowed and isn't triggered (card text). The negation saves him once each turn. d) Any other (please explain)
If the chi penalties came from temporary penalties that cease at the end of the turn (e.g. Bayushi Muhito XP2) , is this any different? Does the active player have a say in this?
A player, 20 January 2011
Assumption #1: opposing player has Ujisato who has used his ability to reduce "random personality 01" to 0 chi Assumption #2: killing somebody at the beginning each turn from will negate the destruction from having 0 chi by Ujisato's action.
So, on the opposing player's turn, I destroy one of my personalities due to the static text on Armor of the Loyal Son to keep my personality alive. Now the opposing player uses Ujisato's action to reduce my personality's chi yet again. Even though my personality is at 0 chi, will this make another check to see if the personality is at or below 0 chi? If so, will I need to destroy another personality to the static text on Armor of the Loyal son?
Alex Jones (rules official), 21 January 2011
Since the announcement has disappeared, I think it's ok to ask about TDoW, right?
A personality with the (unbowed) Armor of the Loyal Son receives a chi penalty token which unfortunately reduces his chi to 0 (all the chi penalties come from tokens). The trait is triggered, destroys a personality, and the death is negated until the end of the turn (due to negation now being an ongoing effect that lasts until the end of turn unless stated otherwise)
If, at the end of the turn, the armor is unbowed, what happens? a) Negation ceases, chi 0 is checked and the personality with the armor dies because the turn ends and the negation can't save him now. (Perhaps killing him somewhat in a limbo between turns?) b) Negation ceases, chi 0 is checked over and over and triggers the trait again, again and again until it can't negate anymore and the personality is destroyed (perhaps killing everything in that player's side) because each negation effect ends right after it's applied but it doesn't stop the trait from triggering again. c) The trait is triggered only once at the beginning of each turn, destroying a personality every turn until the armor begins a turn bowed and isn't triggered (card text). The negation saves him once each turn. d) Any other (please explain)
If the chi penalties came from temporary penalties that cease at the end of the turn (e.g. Bayushi Muhito XP2) , is this any different? Does the active player have a say in this?
Armor of the Loyal Son's negation in not an ongoing negation, it is an instantaneous negation. As explained under Duration and scope of prevention effects, an instantaneous negation is insufficient to negate the destruction of the Personality with 0 chi:
EXCEPTION: Special rules apply to the prevention of Personality destruction from zero Chi (see Chi death rule) and other continuously applied destruction effects. Effects that prevent one instance of destruction, such as the trait "Before this card is destroyed: Negate the destruction," will not prevent destruction from such an effect. Only a continuous or ongoing “parent” prevention effect (for example, "This Personality will not be destroyed" as a trait) can overcome the Personality's destruction.
Alex Jones (rules official), 21 January 2011
Note that since the Armor of the Loyal Son's trait is only triggered once by the impending destruction of the armour's wearer, the result is that one other Personality is destroyed by the trait, and then the wearer is destroyed by the action creating the chi penalty.
Alex
A player, 21 January 2011
Following this:
I'm having trouble discerning whether a negation effect is ongoing or instantaneous. In the ruling above, Armor of the loyal son's negation effect is said to be instantaneous, apparently because the trigger says "before this personality or this card is destroyed". In the same line, Duty is also considered to be instantaneous negation, I guess because the trigger is similar. Correct me if I'm wrong.
However Strength of the Bamboo is said to be ongoing by long standing rulings, and it remains unclear why that reaction has that privilege. The question was raised almost a year ago by several members of this forum and no answer was given. Thesection of the rules describing the differences is somewhat vague and unclear.
"If the effect's wording prevents a specific future occurrence, instead of a general type of occurrence, then the prevention is a single delayed instantaneous effect. "
While it could be argued that the triggers for Strength of the Bamboo and Armor of the Loyal Son are different (one reacts to targeting, the other to destruction), the effects wording are quite similar however. One prevents "destruction from the action's effects" (Bamboo) and the other negates "the action's destruction". And the rules reference specifically to looking for "the effects' wording". I'm quoting Akodo GIlador in the latter ruling:
"Strength of the Bamboo creates an ongoing negation. It will negate any destruction of your hero caused by any of the action's effects."
It can be even said that the armor's wording is just broader (it could negate also destruction coming from costs, not just effects). The wording in "the action's destruction" from Armor of the loyal son can be interpreted as reading like short for "negate the destruction of this personality or this card from the action's effects or costs". So it can't be really said that the effects' wording in both the Armor and Strength of the Bamboo are much different.
What, then, does determine whether a destruction negation effect is ongoing or instantaneous? As it currently is, I can't really know and it looks quite arbitrary (at least, from my point of view); the basis for Strength of the Bamboo being ongoing and Armor of the Loyal Son being instantaneous evades me.
Is it the wording of the trigger (and thus the quote above from a year ago would be wrong or incomplete) or the wording of the negation effect (and then the wrong ruling would be the newest one) or what? How do I tell, from reading a card with a destruction negation effect, if the negation would be instantaneous? Please could you give us any guidelines for this?
Alex Jones (rules official), 21 January 2011
Following this:
I'm having trouble discerning whether a negation effect is ongoing or instantaneous. In the ruling above, Armor of the loyal son's negation effect is said to be instantaneous, apparently because the trigger says "before this personality or this card is destroyed". In the same line, Duty is also considered to be instantaneous negation, I guess because the trigger is similar. Correct me if I'm wrong.
However Strength of the Bamboo is said to be ongoing by long standing rulings, and it remains unclear why that reaction has that privilege. The question was raised almost a year ago by several members of this forum and no answer was given. Thesection of the rules describing the differences is somewhat vague and unclear.
"If the effect's wording prevents a specific future occurrence, instead of a general type of occurrence, then the prevention is a single delayed instantaneous effect. "
While it could be argued that the triggers for Strength of the Bamboo and Armor of the Loyal Son are different (one reacts to targeting, the other to destruction), the effects wording are quite similar however. One prevents "destruction from the action's effects" (Bamboo) and the other negates "the action's destruction". And the rules reference specifically to looking for "the effects' wording". I'm quoting Akodo GIlador in the latter ruling:
"Strength of the Bamboo creates an ongoing negation. It will negate any destruction of your hero caused by any of the action's effects."
It can be even said that the armor's wording is just broader (it could negate also destruction coming from costs, not just effects). The wording in "the action's destruction" from Armor of the loyal son can be interpreted as reading like short for "negate the destruction of this personality or this card from the action's effects or costs". So it can't be really said that the effects' wording in both the Armor and Strength of the Bamboo are much different.
What, then, does determine whether a destruction negation effect is ongoing or instantaneous? As it currently is, I can't really know and it looks quite arbitrary (at least, from my point of view); the basis for Strength of the Bamboo being ongoing and Armor of the Loyal Son being instantaneous evades me.
Is it the wording of the trigger (and thus the quote above from a year ago would be wrong or incomplete) or the wording of the negation effect (and then the wrong ruling would be the newest one) or what? How do I tell, from reading a card with a destruction negation effect, if the negation would be instantaneous? Please could you give us any guidelines for this?
Under discussion.
Alex Jones (rules official), 25 January 2011
Roger has expanded the rules under Duration and scope of prevention effects.
Alex