L5R CCG Rules board, 26 December 2010 to 7 January 2011
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 26 December 2010
Ochiai's trait: Before the resolution of a duel involving your Fire Personality at Ochai's location: Give each of your focused cards +1 Focus Value.
Low Stance: Focus Effect: Before this duel’s resolution, negate all bonuses to each focused card’s Focus Value.
Since Focus Effects are traits, and both traits have the same trigger, does the timing fall under:
"B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen."
Meaning that the active player could choose to resolve Low Stance before resolving Ochiai?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 26 December 2010
Ochiai's trait: Before the resolution of a duel involving your Fire Personality at Ochai's location: Give each of your focused cards +1 Focus Value.
Low Stance: Focus Effect: Before this duel’s resolution, negate all bonuses to each focused card’s Focus Value.
Since Focus Effects are traits, and both traits have the same trigger, does the timing fall under:
"B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen."
Meaning that the active player could choose to resolve Low Stance before resolving Ochiai?
It won't matter, as negation effects now have a default duration like all other effects of "until the turn ends". Thus, no matter whether Low Stance's Focus Effect is resolved before or after Ochiai's trait, it will negate the bonus she gives.
"It won't matter, as negation effects now have a default duration like all other effects of "until the turn ends". Thus, no matter whether Low Stance's Focus Effect is resolved before or after Ochiai's trait, it will negate the bonus she gives."
I find this a little nitpicky. I always considered that Low Stance could only negate current existing bonuses at the point the delayed effect is triggered, not any future bonus yet to happen. If Low Stance can negate future bonuses not yet applied, the consequences are obvious. I can't find any rule stating that effects from a Focus Effect are restricted to the duel they've been focused and resolved at, either by duration or any other means.
Since now Low Stance's Focus Effect lasts the whole turn, and nowhere in Low Stance specifies the effects are limited to "this duel": If multiple duels are played in a turn, and someone focuses Low Stance in the first duel, does the Low Stance negate any possible future bonuses, such as Weigh the Cost or Ochiai's trait, in the subsequent duels that turn?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 27 December 2010
Following this:
"It won't matter, as negation effects now have a default duration like all other effects of "until the turn ends". Thus, no matter whether Low Stance's Focus Effect is resolved before or after Ochiai's trait, it will negate the bonus she gives."
I find this a little nitpicky. I always considered that Low Stance could only negate current existing bonuses at the point the delayed effect is triggered, not any future bonus yet to happen. If Low Stance can negate future bonuses not yet applied, the consequences are obvious. I can't find any rule stating that effects from a Focus Effect are restricted to the duel they've been focused and resolved at, either by duration or any other means.
Since now Low Stance's Focus Effect lasts the whole turn, and nowhere in Low Stance specifies the effects are limited to "this duel": If multiple duels are played in a turn, and someone focuses Low Stance in the first duel, does the Low Stance negate any possible future bonuses, such as Weigh the Cost or Ochiai's trait, in the subsequent duels that turn?
Do negation effects negate all new bonuses/penalties by default now too? Meaning that the second sentence on Shameful Injury would no longer be necessary under the new negation rules?
Shameful Injury: Battle: Even if you control no units at the current battlefield: Negate all current Force bonuses and penalties a target Personality has received from actions. Until the turn ends, negate all new Force bonuses or penalties on him from actions.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 28 December 2010
Do negation effects negate all new bonuses/penalties by default now too? Meaning that the second sentence on Shameful Injury would no longer be necessary under the new negation rules?
No. You'll notice that Shameful Injury's first sentence specifically negates current bonuses. Even carrying on until the end of the turn by default, its negating something "current" will only look at what was current when the effect was applied. Indeed, this is what allows it to suppress the continuous penalties from tokens under the new rules, which it did not before.
The problem with Low Stance not referencing "current" bonuses and thus being warped by the new rules is being addressed and will likely result in Technical Errata being issued for it to add "current" to its text within the next day or so.
In response to this topic (viewtopic.php?f=59&t=88018):
Since focus effects are taken one at a time (starting with active player), if (the potential errata to) low stance's focus effect is resolved first, then would subsequent focus effects that provide bonuses (i.e. weigh the cost) be negated? Thank you.
A player, 7 January 2011
In reference to this.
I think the rules team may be jumping at shadows on this one. I agree that negation effects last till end of turn, and thus negates Ochai's bonus.
the text of Low Stance: Focus Effect: Before this duel’s resolution, negate all bonuses to each focused card’s Focus Value.
Clearly deals with the currently focused cards involved in this duel, and doesn't extend to other cards focused later in this turn, "each focused cards Focus Value" is pretty specific. Though if one of the currently focused cards got put into another later focus area in the same turn, then the negation would still be in effect, provided the card never went face down (per the tracking rule). Like say from the new follower in tDoW with the Focus Effect that can focus a ring from the discard pile.
Ack, appologies. I Hadn't got to the post about the technical errata to Low Stance....