A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 13 October 2010
Hey all,
Just wondering as it was brought up at my stronghold store with significant amounts of confusion:
Player A announces "Restoring Order" with his performing unbowed Magistrate targeting Player B's Dishonorable Personality. Player B reacts with "Distractions in Court". Can "Distractions in Court" apply to the rulebook effect of losing Honor from a dishonored Personality being destroyed, or is the destruction of a dishonored Personality the effect of the action and the Honor loss applied AFTER the action ends?
Distractions in Court Political Reaction: After an action is announced, bow your performing Courtier or Magistrate: Reduce all Honor losses by 5 until the action ends. Open: Discard the Imperial Favor: Bow a target Personality.
Restoring Order Political Battle: Target your unbowed Magistrate Personality: Target an enemy Personality with Personal Honor lower than your Magistrate's Chi. Move the enemy Personality home. Bow him if he moved. Destroy him if he is dishonorable.
Basically to sum it up, when is the rulebook effect of losing honor from a dishonored Personality's destruction applied? At the action's resolution or after the action ends?
Anthony
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 13 October 2010
Can "Distractions in Court" apply to the rulebook effect of losing Honor from a dishonored Personality being destroyed, or is the destruction of a dishonored Personality the effect of the action and the Honor loss applied AFTER the action ends?
In the case of Restoring Order, honor loss occurs after the action ends. Other cards, however, will be different - it depends on where in the action a Personality is destroyed, because an action end after the last effect is applied (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... ction_ends). For Restoring Order, it's over when that Personality is destroyed, and honor loss is after that (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Physically_mark ... shonorable).
A player, 14 October 2010
In reference to this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=86870 and this : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=86829 (question 3).
Both posts are about a Personality dying from the last effect of an action, and its destruction triggers either an honor loss (dishonorable death) or gain (Prayer for Guidance). The question is to know whether that honor loss or gain happens during the destroying action's resolution or after the action has ended. The two answers seem contradictory.
In the first thread, Zen states that the rulebook honor loss triggered by the death of a Dishonorable Personality (targeted by Restoring Order in the example) happens after the destroying action ends, so it can't be negated by Distractions in Court.
In the second thread, Loïc states that the honor gain triggered by Prayer for Guidance happens during the destroying action (Ultimate Sacrifice in the example), so it can be negated by Only Actions Speak.
In the rules I could only get this definition: "An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect." This seems insufficient to determine which of the above rulings is right... or did I miss a subtle difference between the two cases?
A player, 14 October 2010
This is under discussion.
A player, 14 October 2010
So reading this bothered me just a little.
Comp rules on Dishonored Status... After a dishonorable Personality is destroyed, the player who controlled him or her loses Honor equal to the Personality's base Personal Honor. This is a rulebook effect, not a card effect.
Comp rules on End of an action... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated.
Comp rules Timing Sequence... (paraphrasing) A. Continuous effect that prevent (Exact Text) B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen. C. Player initiated Reactions.
Seems to me we have a timing conflict at section B. Which would mean active player chooses, though perhaps what you are saying is that the end of an action is a rulebook procedure and not an effect and so doesn't follow the resolution steps. I'm sure there is an exploit waiting to happen if the action ends immediately before any triggered effects triggered by the last effect of an action, as opposed to after it. Wanders off to find some.
Hey what about this from the timming rules... A trigger of "after" one step in a sequence ends will happen prior to the trigger of "before" the next step begins. Both triggers happen between the two steps.
and this in the "Actions" section... When a player takes an action, follow steps A through E in sequence. D. Resolution (i.e. when action effects are applied) E. Action Ends.
Seems to me the trigger for the honor loss has to come before you move the game state on to step E. Logically, a trigger to the destruction that occurs as part of step D must occur before the game finishes step D, which is well before step E when the effect of "Distractions in Court" wears off.
To rule it otherwise means things like Shame Never Dies (reacts to "after resolution", i.e. before Action ends by rule) would apply before the honor loss for the destruction itself, thus is subject to the reduction from "Distractions in Court" while the rule book triggered effect is not, contrary to the timming resolution steps?!?!?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 14 October 2010
So reading this bothered me just a little.
Comp rules on Dishonored Status... After a dishonorable Personality is destroyed, the player who controlled him or her loses Honor equal to the Personality's base Personal Honor. This is a rulebook effect, not a card effect.
Comp rules on End of an action... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated.
Comp rules Timing Sequence... (paraphrasing) A. Continuous effect that prevent (Exact Text) B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen. C. Player initiated Reactions.
Seems to me we have a timing conflict at section B. Which would mean active player chooses, though perhaps what you are saying is that the end of an action is a rulebook procedure and not an effect and so doesn't follow the resolution steps. I'm sure there is an exploit waiting to happen if the action ends immediately before any triggered effects triggered by the last effect of an action, as opposed to after it. Wanders off to find some.
Hey what about this from the timming rules... A trigger of "after" one step in a sequence ends will happen prior to the trigger of "before" the next step begins. Both triggers happen between the two steps.
and this in the "Actions" section... When a player takes an action, follow steps A through E in sequence. D. Resolution (i.e. when action effects are applied) E. Action Ends.
Seems to me the trigger for the honor loss has to come before you move the game state on to step E. Logically, a trigger to the destruction that occurs as part of step D must occur before the game finishes step D, which is well before step E when the effect of "Distractions in Court" wears off.
To rule it otherwise means things like Shame Never Dies (reacts to "after resolution", i.e. before Action ends by rule) would apply before the honor loss for the destruction itself, thus is subject to the reduction from "Distractions in Court" while the rule book triggered effect is not, contrary to the timming resolution steps?!?!?
Thanks for the input. We're working to close this little issue, and should have it cleared up soon.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 21 October 2010
We've clarified the wiki: http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... ction_ends
Now it explicitly puts the end of an action after responses to the last effect. Thus, the honor loss in the original question would now be within the time frame for negation, so would be prevented by Distractions in Court.
A player, 12 February 2011
This ruling here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=86870&p=1149662&hilit=Distractions+in+Court#p1149662
seems to imply that if I play Restoring Order against a dishonored personality, and if he dies, than playing shame never dies would have its honor loss lowered as well. Is this correct?
If I play a honor loss action that targets a personality and Distractions in Court is played in response, can that personality commit seppukku?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 12 February 2011
(I)f I play Restoring Order against a dishonored personality, and if he dies, (would) playing shame never dies would have its honor loss lowered (by Distractions in Court) as well(?)
Yes. Shame Never Dies is played after action resolution, which is still before the action ending.
If I play a honor loss action that targets a personality and Distractions in Court is played in response, can that personality commit seppukku?
Using the player ability? No, if no honor was lost because it was reduced (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Glossary_R#Reduce.2Fincrease). "Reduction" does not mean "you take the honor loss, then get an honor gain to arrive at the final tally". Reduction changes the amount of the loss.