A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 6 June 2010
Forgive my failed seachjutsu if this has already been asked.
I'm looking into building a deck and discovered this oddity.
I am building a Courtier deck and am looking at using a crane stronghold. As I read the rules for overlay it seams that I can experience over Bayushi Karumi in Crane. I will copy/paste the pertinent rules that apply from the comprehensive rules.
Loyal: A Personality with the Loyal keyword will not become controlled by a player who does not share a Clan alignment with that Personality - either by bringing into play or by changing control.
Overlay: If the overlaying card is somehow lost, the underlying card reappears without entering play. There has only been a change to the same card. Likewise, an overlaying card is not entering play even if it comes from an out-of-play area. If the overlaying card is put in an out-of-play area while the underlying card remains, this is not leaving play.
Experienced: The overlaying Personality's Honor Requirement need not be met, but other requirements of play (such as the Loyal keyword) must be met before the card can overlay.
So, as I read it. Overlaying an experienced card is not entering play or changing control. It is changing play stats. So any clan can overlay a loyal personality onto a non-loyal personality as per the rules. If I am incorrect then please enlighten me as to the flaw in my logic.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 6 June 2010
(Can) any clan can overlay a loyal personality onto a non-loyal personality(?)
Yes, they can.
Alex Jones (rules official), 6 June 2010
Just to be clear, Bayushi Kurumi experienced, who is Scorpion Clan and Loyal, cannot be overlaid by a Crane Clan player; you must satisfy Loyal requirements when overlaying:
Experienced. The overlaying Personality's Honor Requirement need not be met, but other requirements of play (such as the Loyal keyword) must be met before the card can overlay.
However, as Zen points out, a Scorpion Clan player can overlay the Loyal Kurumi exp over the non-Loyal Kurumi non-exp.
Alex
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 7 June 2010
To help those who (like me - d'oh!), looked at the Overlaying rules and saw nothing about play requirements, I've copied some of the text from the Experienced section of the wiki to the overlaying section.
A player, 7 June 2010
I think you guys are missing my point in my previous post. Loyal checks for change of contol and entering into play. Overlaying is neither. It is changing game stats. Inexperinenced karumi is in play. When the overlay happens loyal is satisfied as written. She has not changed control or entered play. Any clan should be able to overlay a loyal onto a non-loyal personality.
PS: Not being able to reply to your own post is silly.
Alex Jones (rules official), 7 June 2010
I think you guys are missing my point in my previous post. Loyal checks for change of contol and entering into play. Overlaying is neither. It is changing game stats. Inexperinenced karumi is in play. When the overlay happens loyal is satisfied as written. She has not changed control or entered play. Any clan should be able to overlay a loyal onto a non-loyal personality.
PS: Not being able to reply to your own post is silly.
Which part of
The overlaying Personality's Honor Requirement need not be met, but other requirements of play (such as the Loyal keyword) must be met before the card can overlay.
is unclear to you? Why do you think that sentence lets you ignore Loyal when overlaying?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 7 June 2010
Not being able to reply to your own post is silly.
This is addressed in the top post in the forum: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=82238
It ensure that only Rules Team members can reply to posts.
A player, 7 June 2010
I think we both agree to the Experienced line I originally posted. You must meet all requirements. Where the disconnect is occurring at is with the Loyal keyword.
Loyal: A Personality with the Loyal keyword will not become controlled by a player who does not share a Clan alignment with that Personality - either by bringing into play or by changing control.
In order to meet the requirements for Loyal, the card must not enter play for an other clan or become controlled by an other clan. This prevents other clans from paying for loyal personalities from their provinces and steeling them with enticement and the like. When you experience over the personality you are not coming into play, as per the Overlay section. You in NO way count as entering play. So you are not entering play for an other clan which satisfies Loyal. You are not becoming controlled by an other clan since you already are controlled by that clan legally in the inexperienced form. Control of the personality has not changed, so again Loyal is satisfied. Loyal is totally satisfied.
Remember that when you Overlay you are changing game stats on a personality in play. You are not entering play and you are not changing control. Now if a later effect takes them away from you for a turn, then they would most likely either enter the dead pile or get removed from game.
Again, I agree with the Experienced line you and I both posted. I completely agree with it. There is no questioning it.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 7 June 2010
I think we both agree to the Experienced line I originally posted. You must meet all requirements. Where the disconnect is occurring at is with the Loyal keyword.
Loyal: A Personality with the Loyal keyword will not become controlled by a player who does not share a Clan alignment with that Personality - either by bringing into play or by changing control.
In order to meet the requirements for Loyal, the card must not enter play for an other clan or become controlled by an other clan. This prevents other clans from paying for loyal personalities from their provinces and steeling them with enticement and the like. When you experience over the personality you are not coming into play, as per the Overlay section. You in NO way count as entering play. So you are not entering play for an other clan which satisfies Loyal. You are not becoming controlled by an other clan since you already are controlled by that clan legally in the inexperienced form. Control of the personality has not changed, so again Loyal is satisfied. Loyal is totally satisfied.
Remember that when you Overlay you are changing game stats on a personality in play. You are not entering play and you are not changing control. Now if a later effect takes them away from you for a turn, then they would most likely either enter the dead pile or get removed from game.
Again, I agree with the Experienced line you and I both posted. I completely agree with it. There is no questioning it.
Whether or not the Loyal trait should be checked before overlaying is not a discussion we are having here. That's not our purpose in this forum.
The rule exists, and it's highly unlikely it will change in the foreseeable future.
Please think carefully before making additional posts on this topic.