Here's the scenario: The Badgers Live has resolved, and no non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personalities have been destroyed since. A Crab player, who has Hida's Guidance in play, attacks a defender with at least two provinces. At one battlefield, the Crab has an army (with more force than the province strength of the province at that battlefield) containing at least one non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personality. While the battle at that battlefield is being resolved, the Crab player takes the Battle action on Hida's Guidance. As they attempt to destroy their army to pay the cost, The Badgers Live prevents destruction of the non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personality. What happens?
Hida's Guidance and The Badgers Live
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Here's the scenario: The Badgers Live has resolved, and no non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personalities have been destroyed since. A Crab player, who has Hida's Guidance in play, attacks a defender with at least two provinces. At one battlefield, the Crab has an army (with more force than the province strength of the province at that battlefield) containing at least one non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personality. While the battle at that battlefield is being resolved, the Crab player takes the Battle action on Hida's Guidance. As they attempt to destroy their army to pay the cost, The Badgers Live prevents destruction of the non-Shadowlands Unaligned Human Personality. What happens?
If the costs are not fully paid, the action's effects fail.
Followup to http://alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83090: does the attacker still have to destroy the rest of his army?
Followup to http://alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83090: does the attacker still have to destroy the rest of his army?
He would not have to destroy his army, and the Celestial would remain in play.
The destruction of all Personalities occurs simulataneously, but due to Timing, the negation of the unaligned Personality is applied first. At which point, this set of Rules kicks in:
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_actions#C._Pay_costs: "From the point when the action is announced legally to the point where the individual cost is required, if payment of any of an action’s mandatory costs is interfered with, the player taking the action may choose to pay the costs another way, or choose not to pay the cost.
If he or she cannot pay the costs another way, or chooses not to, then any remaining costs do not need to be paid, but costs already paid are not refunded, and the action’s effects do not happen. The action is still considered taken and ended, but not resolved, and the ability that created it is considered used. If the action was on a Strategy card, the card is discarded normally."
Discarding the Guidance comes after the Personalties' destructions, so the Crab player could refrain from paying that too, per the above.
And in case you're wondering, there's no "other way" to pay the cost. Once the unaligned Personality's destruction is negated, you can't "re-destroy" him as an "alternative payment". He has to go, and since he doesn't, the payment is interfered with and will fail.
UPDATE:
The above is somewhat incorrect. I got bogged down considering all the timing, so a fundamental problem eluded me.
Because it is known beforehand that The Badgers Live's effect will negate an unaligned Personality's destruction, a Crab player may not even ANNOUNCE the action on Hida's Guidance with an unaligned Personality in his army, due to Good Faith.
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_actions#Good_Faith_Rule (emphasis mine): "Aspects of the game state are taken into account in determining legality under the Good Faith Rule, such as effects that reduce costs, prevent costs from being paid, or relax requirements."
In relation to this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83090
If an opponent has forgotten or not paid attention to the effect, and announces Power Corrupting with intent on killing a ronin PErsonality to the cost. Which of the following is correct?
a) Announcing the action is illegal, and is put back into hand. b) Announcing the action is a legal play, and must now target someone who CAN be destroyed to pay costs. c) Announcing the action is a legal play, as is targetting a ronin for destruction due to Blind Cards, and the card is discarded without effect. d) Announcing the action is a legal play, as is targetting a ronin for destruction due to Blind Cards, 4 gold is paid, and the card is discarded without any further effect. e) Other
And does any of this change if the Ronin is the ONLY legal target compared to if there are non-ronin targets.
Also covering any other similar cards played from HAND, such as Greater Sacrifice.
Cheers
(NB. By ronin I'm just referring to non-shadowlands unaligned human personality. It's faster to type.)
In relation to this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=83090
If an opponent has forgotten or not paid attention to the effect, and announces Power Corrupting with intent on killing a ronin PErsonality to the cost. Which of the following is correct?
a) Announcing the action is illegal, and is put back into hand. b) Announcing the action is a legal play, and must now target someone who CAN be destroyed to pay costs. c) Announcing the action is a legal play, as is targetting a ronin for destruction due to Blind Cards, and the card is discarded without effect. d) Announcing the action is a legal play, as is targetting a ronin for destruction due to Blind Cards, 4 gold is paid, and the card is discarded without any further effect. e) Other
From a strictly CCG Rules standpoint wherein we assume in examples that all plays are made intentionally with full knowledge of all factors and we just evaluate their correctness, "c" and "d" are never true due to their second part (that announcing the action AND targeting the ronin are legal) due to ruling you linked.
However, beyond that, the CCG Rules provide no definite "right" answer from your other choices. At what point your opponent's "mistake" is forced upon him or not is between the two of you in a casual game, or a matter for a judge in a tournament, so this question probably would be better answered here.
And does any of this change if the Ronin is the ONLY legal target compared to if there are non-ronin targets.
That one is easier, because as in your link, paying the cost would then be known to be impossible and announcing the action would definitely be illegal. Again, if your opponent does announce it by "mistake" in this case, that's between you, him, and possibly a tournament judge.
Also covering any other similar cards played from HAND, such as Greater Sacrifice.
I don't understand the distinction you're making, why you would be wondering about other such cards separately? Do the above answers not already cover similar scenarios? And if not, don't I need further information in order to give another anwser?
(NB. By ronin I'm just referring to non-shadowlands unaligned human personality. It's faster to type.)
Noted.