A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 15 April 2010
Hello... I have a question about timing and triggers. Orginal question was about Duty, Naomasa and Senichi, but real problem is in multiple Senichi/Duty reactions on the same trigger.
Cast of characters: Akodo Senichi Reaction: Before another player's card's effect destroys one of your Lion Clan Samurai Personalities in Senichi's army, destroy Senichi: Negate the Personality's destruction. Gain 3 Honor. Duty Reaction: Before another player’s card’s effect destroys one of your Personalities, destroy your target honorable Samurai Personality at the same location: Negate the first Personality’s destruction.
Situation: There is a bunch of random Lion Samurai personalities in my army plus another bunch of Akodo Senichis. Opponent tries to kill one of guys (Lion A). I am of course using Senichi's reaction. Then, I am using another Senichi's reaction... First impression, that's illegal (Rule of Good Faith screaming into my ear) - but is it, really ?
Sequence of events: Lion A is about to die. Trigger alert - "another player's card's effect destroys one of my Lion (Samurai) personality". "X" for short. Trigger 'before X' kicks in. I am using Senichi. Brave samurai A would be saved by his sacrifice. Or, in game terms, I resolve Senichi's (re)action, he is detroyed, and the Lion A destruction is negated. Because of that, no more Senichis could sacrifice themself (blah blah blah). Hey, wait a minute!
(Now the tricky part.) We stopped at this point of timeline, where lies trigger 'before X", and I can still take reactions to this trigger. I want to play another Senichi... Objection: But that's wrong, because we'd moved forward with timeline, that's too late! Hey, hey. I can play as many reactions to a trigger as I want, therefore we are still at the same point. No rushing. We are at the exaclty the same 'before X' as with first Senichi. Objection: But that's wrong, because Lion Samurai A would not be destroyed, and therefore trigger is no longer valid! Destruction is negated - so what? According to Blind Cards rule (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Blind_cards_rule) no card could notice that Lion A's destruction would be negated. Therefore trigger is still valid. We are still at 'before is destroyed' time, and destrucion negation would happen at the moment the poor samurai were to die - which is distant future from our point of view. Objection: But that's wrong, because of Good Faith rule (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... Faith_Rule) and youre obviously cheating! As long as trigger is valid (and it is - see above), I am announcing actions, select targets (if Duty), paying costs, resolving effects, and any of the above are legal and not contrary to each other. Therefore, all Senichis (and Duties) I play are also valid. Multiple sacrifices on my side would build a mega-buffer of destrucition negation. Yest, that's extreme overload, but there were times when one effect could kill a guy multiple times.
I hope you can prove me wrong?
EDIT : Links.
Dan Jacobson (rules official), 16 April 2010
Hello... I have a question about timing and triggers. Orginal question was about Duty, Naomasa and Senichi, but real problem is in multiple Senichi/Duty reactions on the same trigger.
Cast of characters: Akodo Senichi Reaction: Before another player's card's effect destroys one of your Lion Clan Samurai Personalities in Senichi's army, destroy Senichi: Negate the Personality's destruction. Gain 3 Honor. Duty Reaction: Before another player’s card’s effect destroys one of your Personalities, destroy your target honorable Samurai Personality at the same location: Negate the first Personality’s destruction.
Situation: There is a bunch of random Lion Samurai personalities in my army plus another bunch of Akodo Senichis. Opponent tries to kill one of guys (Lion A). I am of course using Senichi's reaction. Then, I am using another Senichi's reaction... First impression, that's illegal (Rule of Good Faith screaming into my ear) - but is it, really ?
Sequence of events: Lion A is about to die. Trigger alert - "another player's card's effect destroys one of my Lion (Samurai) personality". "X" for short. Trigger 'before X' kicks in. I am using Senichi. Brave samurai A would be saved by his sacrifice. Or, in game terms, I resolve Senichi's (re)action, he is detroyed, and the Lion A destruction is negated. Because of that, no more Senichis could sacrifice themself (blah blah blah). Hey, wait a minute!
(Now the tricky part.) We stopped at this point of timeline, where lies trigger 'before X", and I can still take reactions to this trigger. I want to play another Senichi... Objection: But that's wrong, because we'd moved forward with timeline, that's too late! Hey, hey. I can play as many reactions to a trigger as I want, therefore we are still at the same point. No rushing. We are at the exaclty the same 'before X' as with first Senichi. Objection: But that's wrong, because Lion Samurai A would not be destroyed, and therefore trigger is no longer valid! Destruction is negated - so what? According to Blind Cards rule (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Blind_cards_rule) no card could notice that Lion A's destruction would be negated. Therefore trigger is still valid. We are still at 'before is destroyed' time, and destrucion negation would happen at the moment the poor samurai were to die - which is distant future from our point of view. Objection: But that's wrong, because of Good Faith rule (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... Faith_Rule) and youre obviously cheating! As long as trigger is valid (and it is - see above), I am announcing actions, select targets (if Duty), paying costs, resolving effects, and any of the above are legal and not contrary to each other. Therefore, all Senichis (and Duties) I play are also valid. Multiple sacrifices on my side would build a mega-buffer of destrucition negation. Yest, that's extreme overload, but there were times when one effect could kill a guy multiple times.
I hope you can prove me wrong?
EDIT : Links.
Under Discussion.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 20 April 2010
Hi! Sorry this took a little while to sort out.
The answer: No, multiple Senichi's cannot react to the same destruction. Once one negates it, the "Before X happens" trigger is no longer valid, because X is no longer going to happen.
This has always been the case, that you could not negate a future occurrance but continue reacting to it with "Before"-triggered Reactions as if it were still going to happen.
However, I will admit that the Rule stating this was somewhat vague. So we fixed it. And here is that citation:
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Timing#Timing_sequence: "The order of resolution means that triggered effects that come first, due to the above order, the order of Reactions, or the active player’s decision, can negate or otherwise make impossible triggered effects and Reactions that come later. When this happens, Reactions to the now nonexistent trigger may not be taken, and other triggered effects fail to occur. [Clarified & expanded 19 Apr 2010]"