L5R CCG Rules board, 3 August 2009 to 7 August 2009
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 3 August 2009
When you use either of the mulligan actions on Border Keep, what order are the cards in the provinces removed and what order are they put at on the bottom of the deck?
The two options that come to mind are: 1. The order the cards are removed in whatever order the player chooses and then they are arranged in the order of the player's choice on the bottom of the deck. 2. The cards are removed from the provinces, and placed on the bottom of the deck, from left to right as they are initially filled in the provinces.
Are either of these accurate, or is the correct option something else?
Additionally, are all of the cards removed before the provinces are refilled (front left to right I would assume at this point), or are they refilled as the cards are removed and subsequently put on the bottom of the deck?
Relevant Text Border Keep Limited: If it is your first turn: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up. Limited: Once per game: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up.
Thanks for the assistance.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 4 August 2009
When you use either of the mulligan actions on Border Keep, what order are the cards in the provinces removed and what order are they put at on the bottom of the deck?
Neither card text nor rules specifies an order, so any order you want.
I'm a little unsure about when the refilling is done. The question: "Additionally, are all of the cards removed before the provinces are refilled (front left to right I would assume at this point), or are they refilled as the cards are removed and subsequently put on the bottom of the deck?"
did not seem to be covered in the answer. Answer please?
I'm a little unsure about when the refilling is done. The question: "Additionally, are all of the cards removed before the provinces are refilled (front left to right I would assume at this point), or are they refilled as the cards are removed and subsequently put on the bottom of the deck?"
did not seem to be covered in the answer. Answer please?
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Areas_of_the_ga ... of_play.29: "When a card leaves a province and the province then holds fewer than its maximum number of cards... it is refilled with a face-down Dynasty card from the top of the Province’s owner’s deck, unless something else has refilled it."
Border Keep Limited: If it is your first turn: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up. Limited: Once per game: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up.
I wish to use Border Keep to clear and refill three of my Provinces. Which of the following is correct:
1: I declare use of Border Keep. I place the first card at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. I repeat this process until I am done. 2: I declare use of Border Keep, announcing that I will refill three Provinces. I place the first card at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. I repeat this process untill I have done it three times. 3: I declare use of Border Keep. I place all three cards at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. 4: Any of the previous three options, but the cards to be placed under my deck are all selected before they are actually removed from the Provinces.
If the correct option is 1 or 2, the Provinces would refill before I have finished placing cards under my deck. Can I then choose to place the newly revealed card under my deck, instead of the card in a different province?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 5 August 2009
Border Keep Limited: If it is your first turn: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up. Limited: Once per game: Put one or more cards in your provinces at the bottom of your deck, refilling the provinces face-up.
I wish to use Border Keep to clear and refill three of my Provinces. Which of the following is correct:
1: I declare use of Border Keep. I place the first card at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. I repeat this process until I am done. 2: I declare use of Border Keep, announcing that I will refill three Provinces. I place the first card at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. I repeat this process untill I have done it three times. 3: I declare use of Border Keep. I place all three cards at the bottom of my deck, then refill face up. 4: Any of the previous three options, but the cards to be placed under my deck are all selected before they are actually removed from the Provinces.
If the correct option is 1 or 2, the Provinces would refill before I have finished placing cards under my deck. Can I then choose to place the newly revealed card under my deck, instead of the card in a different province?
Try this.
Determine which cards are being removed simultaneously, all at once. This parallels the rules for required targeting (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... _targeting). Border Keep doesn't target, but the wording -- "one or more" -- is otherwise the same.
Cards are all removed from Provinces simultaneously. Because it is physically impossible to put all cards on the bottom of the deck simultaneously, the order is chosen by the player.
All Provinces are refilled simultaneously, because multiple effects created by a single piece of text are simultaneous by default. http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Order_of_effects: "If multiple effects are caused by a single piece of text they occur simultaneously."
Given this series of questions and answers, I have one more.
What stops a player from cycling his whole deck with the first ability until the perfect start is achieved?
Example: Player has 4 cards in provinces and announces the action of Border Keep, selecting the "or more" option for the number of cards to cycle. Starting at province one, the player puts that card at the bottom of the Dynasty deck and refills face up. The new card revealed is also not optimal, so as the action is still resolving that card can also be placed at the bottom of the dynasty deck and refilled face up. In this way a player could reveal, cycle and refill every card in his deck.
Border Keep places no restriction on the numer of cards that can be cycled. It also does not ask you to announce how many you will cycle beyond "one or more". It also does not prevent cycling more than once per province. Does this need a fix?
Cheers UK Ronin
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 5 August 2009
What stops a player from cycling his whole deck with the first ability until the perfect start is achieved?
The threat of social ostracism.
The action says, "one or more cards in your provinces" (card text). Cards in your deck when you use the action cannot be in your provinces.
The action says, "one or more cards in your provinces" (card text). Cards in your deck when you use the action cannot be in your provinces.
When exactly do "you use the action"? I ask because this sequence of questions and answers states you can announce and resolve a Reaction to "Before battle resolution or before an action or trait resolves" to refill a province and then it is legal to cycle that card with Border Keep.
I can't find "use" in the Glossary or Rule Book for CE. Is "use" before resolution, but after announce? Maybe it is somewhere in the mandatory targeting or costs steps?
Cheers UK Ronin
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 7 August 2009
Thanks for this answer, wherein you state:
The action says, "one or more cards in your provinces" (card text). Cards in your deck when you use the action cannot be in your provinces.
When exactly do "you use the action"? I ask because this sequence of questions and answers states you can announce and resolve a Reaction to "Before battle resolution or before an action or trait resolves" to refill a province and then it is legal to cycle that card with Border Keep.
I can't find "use" in the Glossary or Rule Book for CE. Is "use" before resolution, but after announce? Maybe it is somewhere in the mandatory targeting or costs steps?
Cheers UK Ronin
I apologize for using a regular English word that is not specifically defined in the Comprehensive Rules glossary. I must further apologize for what surely must be great confusion arising from sentences like: "A player may use an ability to take an action at the timing point indicated by its designator...", "...abilities (including Reactions) are always voluntary for their player to use," or one of the other ten or so sentences the word appears in that section of the Comprehensive Rules on ability use (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_actions).
I should have been much more precise.
I should have written something like, "Only cards that are contained in Provinces after cost payment and at the start of the action resolution step (http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Abilities_and_a ... resolution) can be put at the bottom of your deck when the effects of Border Keep's action are activated."