A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 25 July 2009
Hidden Moon Dojo: Open: Look at all face-down cards in a target player's provinces. If you destroy a province this turn, its owner will not refill provinces during his next Action Phase.
Ok, I'm playing with Hidden Moon Dojo. In my turn I use the Open ability, and later that turn I destroy one of the provinces.
The next turn, my opponent uses an Ambush in his action phase. As my first action during the battle created by Ambush, I use Unexpected Arrival on Bayushi Eisaku XP, and bring him into play at the battle. I'm bringing into play, not moving, therefore it would be legal. I react then with Bayushi Eisaku XP and discard a card at my opponent's provinces.
As Ambush doesn't create an attack phase in CE, we're still in his Action Phase. Now, the prevention effect on Hidden Moon Dojo would prevent the province being refilled. (As "Does not" and "will not" are considered synonyms, I'll refer to this effect as a "does not" effect). Now, Comprehensive Rules (both SE and CE) state concerning "Does not" effects:
Every application of a "does not" effect is instantaneous. If the “does not” prevents a specific future occurrence, then the "does not" is a single delayed effect. Otherwise, each application of a “does not” effect is an indefinite conditional effect from a “parent” ongoing or continuous effect, and causes the occurrence in question to fail prior to any chance to trigger things "before" the occurrence. (emphasis mine; let me add that I have troubles understanding fully this paragraph, I find it a little too obscure)
So, the rulebook effect (pg. 20) is prevented, and can't be reasserted, because refilling provinces is instantaneous, and also the prevention is instantaneous, or so I've understood from previous rulings on Justly Earned Victory and Shameful Injury, and the bolded part of the SE CR above.
So what happens now with the province? Is it refilled immediately face-down, despite the indefinite conditional effect created by the "parent" ongoing effect in my stronghold? Is it refilled once the current action phase ends, face-down, when the delayed effect of my stronghold ends? Is it ever refilled again? Does it remain empty until the game ends or another new effect refills it?
Additionally: How does Hidden Moon Dojo prevention work in game terms? Does it create an ongoing effect, a delayed effect, or what?
Thank you.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 25 July 2009
Hidden Moon Dojo: Open: Look at all face-down cards in a target player's provinces. If you destroy a province this turn, its owner will not refill provinces during his next Action Phase.
Ok, I'm playing with Hidden Moon Dojo. In my turn I use the Open ability, and later that turn I destroy one of the provinces.
The next turn, my opponent uses an Ambush in his action phase. As my first action during the battle created by Ambush, I use Unexpected Arrival on Bayushi Eisaku XP, and bring him into play at the battle. I'm bringing into play, not moving, therefore it would be legal. I react then with Bayushi Eisaku XP and discard a card at my opponent's provinces.
As Ambush doesn't create an attack phase in CE, we're still in his Action Phase. Now, the prevention effect on Hidden Moon Dojo would prevent the province being refilled. (As "Does not" and "will not" are considered synonyms, I'll refer to this effect as a "does not" effect). Now, Comprehensive Rules (both SE and CE) state concerning "Does not" effects:
Every application of a "does not" effect is instantaneous. If the “does not” prevents a specific future occurrence, then the "does not" is a single delayed effect. Otherwise, each application of a “does not” effect is an indefinite conditional effect from a “parent” ongoing or continuous effect, and causes the occurrence in question to fail prior to any chance to trigger things "before" the occurrence. (emphasis mine; let me add that I have troubles understanding fully this paragraph, I find it a little too obscure)
So, the rulebook effect (pg. 20) is prevented, and can't be reasserted, because refilling provinces is instantaneous, and also the prevention is instantaneous, or so I've understood from previous rulings on Justly Earned Victory and Shameful Injury, and the bolded part of the SE CR above.
So what happens now with the province? Is it refilled immediately face-down, despite the indefinite conditional effect created by the "parent" ongoing effect in my stronghold? Is it refilled once the current action phase ends, face-down, when the delayed effect of my stronghold ends? Is it ever refilled again? Does it remain empty until the game ends or another new effect refills it?
Additionally: How does Hidden Moon Dojo prevention work in game terms? Does it create an ongoing effect, a delayed effect, or what?
Thank you.
The Province remains empty during the action phase, then refills once the Action Phase is over.
Hidden Moon Dojo's second sentence is a procedural effect (http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Procedural_effects), which works a bit like an ongoing effect because a duration is specified.
A player, 25 July 2009
Regarding this
Zen said: The Province remains empty during the action phase, then refills once the Action Phase is over.
Fine, but why? As I said in the original post, it's instantaneous prevention, why does the triggered rulebook effect of refilling reassert again? And why does it reassert at the end of the action phase and not immediately after discarding? (The notion of an effect continuously trying to reassert himself and being negated a trillion times during the whole action phase amuses me)
Zen also said: Hidden Moon Dojo's second sentence is a procedural effect
According to the link provided there, a procedural effect is: [...]one that establishes or alters an element of the sequence of play, or of a sub-procedure within the game such as an action round, battle, or duel. (emphasis mine)
(I'm assuming that Hidden Moon Dojo isn't creating a sub-procedure, because it doesn't create battles, duels, additional actions or any other similar instances) Does that mean that refilling provinces is not just "putting the top card of your dinasty deck in a province, face-down" but also an "element of the sequence of play" (such as the Dynasty Phase itself)? I'd wager that it's only a triggered rulebook effect, at least it doesn't appear as such nowhere in the Sequence of play part of the CR, but you guys know better than me...
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 25 July 2009
(I)t's instantaneous prevention, why does the triggered rulebook effect of refilling reassert again?
Because there is no rule that you only check if a Province is empty once.
(W)hy does it reassert at the end of the action phase and not immediately after discarding?
Because the effect preventing refilling has a duration given by card text.
Does that mean that refilling provinces is not just "putting the top card of your dinasty deck in a province, face-down" but also an "element of the sequence of play"(?)
Possibly. The examples given there are examples, not an exhaustive list of things of possible procedural effects.