A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 20 July 2009
Hello,
Does Justly Earned Victory (see below) remove tokens from cards (i.e. Dance of Flames, First Hand Account, Ninja poison counters...)
Battle: Target your Personality: Move a target enemy Personality with lower Force or with fewer attachments home. Battle: Negate all current Force bonuses and penalties to cards at this battlefield from actions.
The reason I ask is because of the CE rule book under tokens
Token: A marker in the game. You may use beads, pieces of paper, or other common objects as tokens. Tokens may have a keyword (such as Corruption). They may also give a stat bonus or penalty (such as –1C) to whatever they are on. This bonus or penalty is considered to come from the last effect that placed the token on the card or area.
Are the Tokens considered Force bonuses from actions?
Thanks!
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 20 July 2009
Does Justly Earned Victory (see below) remove tokens from cards(?)
No. The tokens stay, but their bonuses are zeroed out.
A player, 20 July 2009
Regarding this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77634&p=1018082&hilit=token#p1018082
Loïc did not rule differently on this, however there was an added portion which Zen did not add in the aforementioned thread.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77065&p=1012550&hilit=token#p1012550
From the above link:
The tokens themselves cannot be negated but the Force bonus they provide is negated by Shameful Injury's first effect, then it reasserts itself immediately because it is continuous and this negation is instantaneous. It is not negated by Shameful Injury's second effect because it is not a new bonus.
Loïc is not incorrect is he? Just want to shake any possible confusion from these two rulings.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 21 July 2009
Regarding this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77634&p=1018082&hilit=token#p1018082
Loïc did not rule differently on this, however there was an added portion which Zen did not add in the aforementioned thread.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77065&p=1012550&hilit=token#p1012550
From the above link:
The tokens themselves cannot be negated but the Force bonus they provide is negated by Shameful Injury's first effect, then it reasserts itself immediately because it is continuous and this negation is instantaneous. It is not negated by Shameful Injury's second effect because it is not a new bonus.
Loïc is not incorrect is he? Just want to shake any possible confusion from these two rulings.
Loïc's right.
A player, 21 July 2009
From here:
"Justly Earned Victory's second Battle action's effect negates all current Force bonuses and penalties to cards at the current battlefield from actions. This is an instantaneous negation." (emphasis mine)
I don't understand how negating an ongoing effect can be instantaneous. In fact, the CR define instantaneous effects: Instantaneous effects
Instantaneous effects involve a change in the game state that is officially recorded by changing the position, orientation, or count of a physical game element.
Such effects include:
* Changes to any card’s physically marked state or game area, such as bowing or becoming dead or dishonored;
* Attaching, transferring, or removing cards or tokens to or from Personalities, Provinces, or other things in the game;
* Changes to Family Honor totals;
* Creating procedures such as duels, battles or additional actions;
* Possession of the Imperial Favor.
Instantaneous effects have no duration. They occur once and are not automatically reversed at any later time.
(emphasis mine, again)
How does the second battle action of Justly Earned Victory fit this definition? It doesn't change a game state or count that is physically recorded, it just changes the value of a certain stat in some cards.
IMHO, the second battle action on Justly Earned Victory (and by extension, Shameful Injury) is an ongoing negation effect that would last until the end of the turn (as the card doesn't specify other duration). I checked both CE and SE comprehensive rules with the same conclusion.
If you disagree with the former statement, please explain me what's wrong in my reasoning.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 21 July 2009
From here:
"Justly Earned Victory's second Battle action's effect negates all current Force bonuses and penalties to cards at the current battlefield from actions. This is an instantaneous negation." (emphasis mine)
I don't understand how negating an ongoing effect can be instantaneous. In fact, the CR define instantaneous effects: Instantaneous effects
Instantaneous effects involve a change in the game state that is officially recorded by changing the position, orientation, or count of a physical game element.
Such effects include:
* Changes to any card’s physically marked state or game area, such as bowing or becoming dead or dishonored;
* Attaching, transferring, or removing cards or tokens to or from Personalities, Provinces, or other things in the game;
* Changes to Family Honor totals;
* Creating procedures such as duels, battles or additional actions;
* Possession of the Imperial Favor.
Instantaneous effects have no duration. They occur once and are not automatically reversed at any later time.
(emphasis mine, again)
How does the second battle action of Justly Earned Victory fit this definition? It doesn't change a game state or count that is physically recorded, it just changes the value of a certain stat in some cards.
IMHO, the second battle action on Justly Earned Victory (and by extension, Shameful Injury) is an ongoing negation effect that would last until the end of the turn (as the card doesn't specify other duration). I checked both CE and SE comprehensive rules with the same conclusion.
If you disagree with the former statement, please explain me what's wrong in my reasoning.
You're consulting the Celestial Edition comprehensive rules -- the ones that say, "Do not consult."
The Samurai Edition comprehensive rules (http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Effects.2C ... prevention -- best we've got now) explicitly says, "Each application of negation... is also instantaneous." Further down, it says, "A negation effect without an explicit duration is considered to be instantaneous, rather than lasting until the end of the turn. This is an exception to the rule on duration of ongoing effects."
So for now, negation is instantaneous.
A player, 4 August 2009
Regarding this ruling and to be clear.
Based on the CE Rules, will the tokens re-assert the penalties immediately? or are they zeroed out? Is this somehow different that with Shameful Injury?
From: "Continuous effects" Continuous effects are those found in non-triggered traits, as well as modifier effects that are not triggered (such as stat modifiers on Items or tokens). [...] If another effect reverses or modifies the continuous effect, the continuous effect does not automatically re-assert itself. Only if the continuous effect ends and begins again, or when the other effect ends, would the continuous effect begin.
From: "Duration and scope of negation effects" Every application of negation is instantaneous. [...] If a type of continuous occurrence is being negated (for example, Force bonuses from a non-triggered trait), then: All continuous occurrences of that type are negated while the negation is in effect, and reassert themselves afterwards. Basically, I want to be sure I understand the rule correctly, thanks.
Note: The last ruling (referenced above) was slightly confusing to me, not sure was the final ruling was.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 4 August 2009
Regarding this ruling and to be clear.
Based on the CE Rules, will the tokens re-assert the penalties immediately? or are they zeroed out? Is this somehow different that with Shameful Injury?
From: "Continuous effects" Continuous effects are those found in non-triggered traits, as well as modifier effects that are not triggered (such as stat modifiers on Items or tokens). [...] If another effect reverses or modifies the continuous effect, the continuous effect does not automatically re-assert itself. Only if the continuous effect ends and begins again, or when the other effect ends, would the continuous effect begin.
From: "Duration and scope of negation effects" Every application of negation is instantaneous. [...] If a type of continuous occurrence is being negated (for example, Force bonuses from a non-triggered trait), then: All continuous occurrences of that type are negated while the negation is in effect, and reassert themselves afterwards. Basically, I want to be sure I understand the rule correctly, thanks.
Note: The last ruling (referenced above) was slightly confusing to me, not sure was the final ruling was.
The outcome has not changed with the Celestial Edition comprehensive rules coming online.
Justly Earned Victory specifies no duration, so it is an instantaneous effect. http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Duratio ... on_effects: "A negation effect without an explicit duration is instantaneous, rather than lasting until the end of the turn (see below). This is an exception to the rule on duration of ongoing effects.
Tokens are continuous effects. http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Effects#Continuous_effects: "Continuous effects are those found in non-triggered traits, as well as modifier effects that are not triggered (such as stat modifiers on Items or tokens)."
Finally, "An instantaneous negation effect will not suppress a continuous effect."
Justly Earned Victory does nothing to bonuses from tokens. Shameful Injury does nothing to bonuses on tokens already present.