Yoritomo Eriko XP + Unpredictable Strategy

L5R CCG Rules board, 15 April 2009 to 29 April 2009

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 15 April 2009

Yoritomo Eriko XP is at one battlefield, and there's another unit controlled by the same player at another battlefield. Both units are opposed. Then Eriko's controller plays Unpredictable Strategy on Eriko XP and his other unit, switching their locations. Can Yoritomo Eriko XP react now and bow a personality at her new battlefield?

Mantis Clan • Samurai • Magistrate • Naval • Experienced • Unique Reaction: After another of your Personalities moves to or from Eriko's battlefield: Bow a target Personality at Eriko's battlefield.

Dan Jacobson (rules official), 15 April 2009

Yoritomo Eriko XP is at one battlefield, and there's another unit controlled by the same player at another battlefield. Both units are opposed. Then Eriko's controller plays Unpredictable Strategy on Eriko XP and his other unit, switching their locations. Can Yoritomo Eriko XP react now and bow a personality at her new battlefield?

Mantis Clan • Samurai • Magistrate • Naval • Experienced • Unique Reaction: After another of your Personalities moves to or from Eriko's battlefield: Bow a target Personality at Eriko's battlefield.

Yes. Either way you slice it, a personality is moving from Eriko's Battlefield.

She may bow a personality at her new location (post-movement).

EDIT: Please note that if Eriko is at home when you use Unpredictable Strategy, she cannot use her reaction, because Eriko was not at a Battelfield before the action occurred.

A player, 17 April 2009

Hi, in regards to this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75268

I suppose I need a bit more detailed explanation as to why this works. In my view, Eriko would not be able to use her reaction because no personality has moved to or from "Eriko's battlefield". I think the confusion comes from trying to understand how simultaneous movements (from Unpredictable Strategy) deals with defining "Eriko's battlefield". I guess there are two ways of looking at it. The way Kaiu Genji seems to be looking at it is that if you define "Eriko's battlefield" as the one she WAS at then she triggers because another personality moved TO there, and if you define "Eriko's battlefield" as the one she is NOW at then she triggers because another personality moved FROM there. However, the way I look at it is that Eriko is looking for when another personality moves to a battlefield that she is currently at, or moves away from a battlefield that she is currently at. In that view, because of the simultaneous movement, Eriko would not be able to use her reaction because the other personality was never in the same place as Eriko. Basically, to move TO or FROM Eriko's battlefield implies sharing a battlefield with Eriko at some point, which never occurs in this scenario.

Please explain this ruling further so I can understand, and thank you very much for your help!

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 17 April 2009

I guess there are two ways of looking at it.

Argueably, yes; but we have ruled that Reactions or traits such as this look at current conditions based on when they activate.

if you define "Eriko's battlefield" as the one she WAS at then she triggers because another personality moved TO there

So, no, not this one. Moving on...

if you define "Eriko's battlefield" as the one she is NOW at then she triggers because another personality moved FROM there.

Yes, that's correct.

However, the way I look at it is that Eriko is looking for when another personality moves to a battlefield that she is currently at, or moves away from a battlefield that she is currently at.

Because of the part I underlined (and specifically the operative word in that part, which I also italicized) this part of "your view" matches identically the view from the second quote above, which I have confirmed as the correct interpretation.

EDIT: Note that she doesn't trigger nor look for "when" the other Personality moves (as you said), but "After" (per her ability's text).

Basically, to move TO or FROM Eriko's battlefield implies sharing a battlefield with Eriko at some point, which never occurs in this scenario.

So, again, no (to the quote directly above).

I hope that clarifies the matter.

EDIT 2: The end result is correct, but the reasoning by which I arrived there is tentative. Sorry to say that on a Friday, but the Junta will resolve it as soon as we are able.

A player, 17 April 2009

Ok, so I may be playing Devil's Advocate here, but I assure you its in a good-faith effort to gain a solid understanding of the game's more confusing rules interactions.

Previous Thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75268

If I understand your reasoning correctly, you claim that Eriko's battlefield is the one she is currently at, and that since the action moved a personality from there, then she should trigger? Then, by the same reasoning, if I control Bayushi Paneki at Battlefield A, and my opponent uses Unwavering Assault to move one of his Hida Bob into the battle, then Paneki should trigger because Paneki's location is Battlefield A, and Hida Bob is at Battlefield A and was targetted by the action. But that was ruled incorrect here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=72061 Also, that ruling supports my view that the condition (being at the same location) had to be met as the event (targetting) was happening, not before or after. "the additional condition that the card be at his location also refers back to when the targeting occurred."

Following that ruling, I can't understand why Eriko does not have to be at the same location as the other personality in order to have her triggering condition met? If you simply replace the word "targeting" with "moving" in the above rules quote, then you see why I think Eriko will not trigger unless the other personality actually moves to join her, or moves away from sharing a battlefield with her. I hope you understand my point of view, and I truly appreciate your time and help.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 19 April 2009

Ok, so I may be playing Devil's Advocate here, but I assure you its in a good-faith effort to gain a solid understanding of the game's more confusing rules interactions.

Previous Thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75268

If I understand your reasoning correctly, you claim that Eriko's battlefield is the one she is currently at, and that since the action moved a personality from there, then she should trigger? Then, by the same reasoning, if I control Bayushi Paneki at Battlefield A, and my opponent uses Unwavering Assault to move one of his Hida Bob into the battle, then Paneki should trigger because Paneki's location is Battlefield A, and Hida Bob is at Battlefield A and was targetted by the action. But that was ruled incorrect here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=72061 Also, that ruling supports my view that the condition (being at the same location) had to be met as the event (targetting) was happening, not before or after. "the additional condition that the card be at his location also refers back to when the targeting occurred."

Following that ruling, I can't understand why Eriko does not have to be at the same location as the other personality in order to have her triggering condition met? If you simply replace the word "targeting" with "moving" in the above rules quote, then you see why I think Eriko will not trigger unless the other personality actually moves to join her, or moves away from sharing a battlefield with her. I hope you understand my point of view, and I truly appreciate your time and help.

Ah, yes. I do see your point of view.

Unfortunately, Paneki's trait was worded somewhat ambiguously and makes for poor precedent. I originally interpreted it the same as Genji and I have done with Eriko's above, but in Paneki's specific case, that was wrong, and I had to change my ruling (as you can see, from the fact it was EDIT'd).

What's important is this:

Eriko's action is triggered after movement actually happens, so that all conditions of location then refer to the new situation. Paneki's is triggered after an action resolves, but looks for a specific kind of action that did something in the past - "targeted a Personality at Paneki's location." This is the unfortunately ambiguous part, but we have ruled it (per its Design intent) as "who was then at Paneki's location," not "who is now at Paneki's location." Eriko's situation is unambiguous - the conditions of her action can only proceed from the state of play at the time the reaction is taken.

I hope that puts your doubts to rest and explains the situation.

A player, 20 April 2009

I beg your pardon, but the discussion is confusing me. Genji said: Please note that if Eriko is at home when you use Unpredictable Strategy, she cannot use her reaction, because Eriko was not at a Battelfield before the action occurred.

MacBeth later adds: Eriko's action is triggered after movement actually happens, so that all conditions of location then refer to the new situation. (Emphasis mine)

These two answers seem contradictory, IMHO. Does Eriko's location when Unpredictable Strategy was announced really matter? Or is her final location the only one to be considered? Thank you in advance.

Dan Jacobson (rules official), 29 April 2009

I beg your pardon, but the discussion is confusing me. Genji said: Please note that if Eriko is at home when you use Unpredictable Strategy, she cannot use her reaction, because Eriko was not at a Battelfield before the action occurred.

MacBeth later adds: Eriko's action is triggered after movement actually happens, so that all conditions of location then refer to the new situation. (Emphasis mine)

These two answers seem contradictory, IMHO. Does Eriko's location when Unpredictable Strategy was announced really matter? Or is her final location the only one to be considered? Thank you in advance.

You are correct, Mamoru.

Her location after the movement effects have resolved is what matters.