L5R CCG Rules board, 1 March 2009 to 25 March 2009
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 1 March 2009
In Time of War Until the end of the game, during each turn, a player's Family Honor can not rise over its value when the turn began plus 5.
In Time of War is in play. I have gained 5 honor this turn already. My opponent dishonors one of my personalities. This personality then generates an honor gain. I would assume that the personality rehonors since the honor gain itself isn't negated, just the family total can't change anymore, or alternatively, the honor gain never occurs due to the dishonored status of my personality. How would this work in actuality? Would the personality rehonor?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 1 March 2009
In Time of War is in play. I have gained 5 honor this turn already. My opponent dishonors one of my personalities. This personality then generates an honor gain. Would the personality rehonor?
A. Apply any ongoing or continuous effects, such as "can not" wording, that negate or otherwise modify the occurrence that defines the trigger. For example, "can not move home" negation happens at this point prior to a unit moving home, so that no other triggered effects, traits or actions can respond to the unit's movement. The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply.
---> In Time Of War applies here
(more snippage) C. Apply any triggered rulebook effects that are not part of actions, such as rehonoring Personalities instead of Honor gain. The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply.
So, according to this, In Time of War ongoing "can not" negation effect should apply before the rehonoring of personalities.
A. Apply any ongoing or continuous effects, such as "can not" wording, that negate or otherwise modify the occurrence that defines the trigger. For example, "can not move home" negation happens at this point prior to a unit moving home, so that no other triggered effects, traits or actions can respond to the unit's movement. The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply.
---> In Time Of War applies here
(more snippage) C. Apply any triggered rulebook effects that are not part of actions, such as rehonoring Personalities instead of Honor gain. The active player decides the order in which more than one of these effects apply.
So, according to this, In Time of War ongoing "can not" negation effect should apply before the rehonoring of personalities.
Is there anything wrong in this reasoning?
You're applying rules for timing conflicts, but this isn't a timing conflict (i.e., two things trying to occur at the same time). The question isn't, "When is the Honor gain squelched?" but "Is there an Honor gain at all?" The blind cards rule says, "Yes."
In Time of War creates a negation effect that negates all honor gains that would rise a player's family honor above a value. Source Tentatively I'd classify this effect as an ongoing negation effect (but it could possibly be continuous). Correct me if I'm wrong.
It has also been stated that reactions "before a player gains honor" always come before this negation effect. Source. I'd also say that, since honor gains and losses are instantaneous effects, I think it makes no sense applying it "after a player gains honor", but you're entitled to disagree.
My search-fu of cards with triggers to honor gains shows that all cards I found that modify an honor gain do it "before" the gain. If "In Time of War" modifies them with other timing, it could possibly be unprecedented. Feel free to bring forth other cases.
Assuming a player's family honor has risen to his value when the turn started plus 5, that player is about to gain X honor When will the negation effect of In Time of War be applied? Before he gains the honor? Retroactively, after the honor has been gained? At the very moment both players pass consecutively to the trigger for reactions "before a player gains honor" and before anything else happens? At the end of the turn? Some other timing I haven't thought of?
Thank you in advance
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 18 March 2009
In Time of War creates a negation effect that negates all honor gains that would rise a player's family honor above a value. Source Tentatively I'd classify this effect as an ongoing negation effect (but it could possibly be continuous). Correct me if I'm wrong.
It has also been stated that reactions "before a player gains honor" always come before this negation effect. Source. I'd also say that, since honor gains and losses are instantaneous effects, I think it makes no sense applying it "after a player gains honor", but you're entitled to disagree.
My search-fu of cards with triggers to honor gains shows that all cards I found that modify an honor gain do it "before" the gain. If "In Time of War" modifies them with other timing, it could possibly be unprecedented. Feel free to bring forth other cases.
Assuming a player's family honor has risen to his value when the turn started plus 5, that player is about to gain X honor When will the negation effect of In Time of War be applied? Before he gains the honor? Retroactively, after the honor has been gained? At the very moment both players pass consecutively to the trigger for reactions "before a player gains honor" and before anything else happens? At the end of the turn? Some other timing I haven't thought of?
Thank you in advance
We're talking about this in the Rules Junta. Stay tuned.
A player, 23 March 2009
any update on this topic viewtopic.php?f=59&t=74329
Sorry for creating a new topic, i can't seem to reply on any topic here in the rules question page.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 24 March 2009
any update on this topic viewtopic.php?f=59&t=74329
Sorry for creating a new topic, i can't seem to reply on any topic here in the rules question page.
Nothing to report. We won't hold out on you, honest, we'll tell you when something happens.
The forum is deliberately set up so that only Rules Team can reply. This way, we don't have people jumping in offering unofficial opinions, which causes confusion. We manually merge relevant threads.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 25 March 2009
The very first post in the thread is incorrect.
If Time of War is preventing honor gains, rehonoring cannot occur.
There's a couple of reason for this, but a major one is that the Blind Cards rule only applies to actions.