A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Game of Sincerity reads:
Battle: Dishonor your target unbowed Personality: Dishonor a target Personality. His controller loses 2 Honor. Neither Personality contributes Force in this battle's resolution.
Can I target one of my Phoenix Samurai to perform the action, a second of my Phoenix Samurai as the affected personality, have them both commit seppuku and have each seperate seppuku action count towards Ring of the Phoenix meeting 2/3 of its requirements?
No you can use the seppuku reaction only once for the one Honor loss from Game of Sincerity, that is why only one of your two involved Personalities will commit seppuku this way. (This is a reversal.)
Timing, Resolving timing conflicts: "A player can not use the same Reaction or triggered trait twice to a single triggering occurrence from the same copy of a card, or from the rules."
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73279
"After the third or later time in one turn you resolve an action that destroyed any of your Phoenix Clan Personalities during a battle: You may put this card into play from your hand."
It looks like the entering play trigger for Ring of the Phoenix doesn't care about how many personalities are killed per action, only that 3 or more such actions have resolved.
Indeed. That is why two separate use of the seppuku reaction count as two different actions for Ring of the Phoenix.
(Edit) But you are right to underline that what is described above counts as one action for Ring of the Phoenix.
http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic. ... me#p959386
Could you please clarify why it is legal for both of the Samurai personalities to commit seppuku? Since the trigger for the seppuku reaction is "...before you lose honor...", doesn't the reaction only trigger once, letting you only seppuku with one personality?
Thanks for the catch and sorry for the mistake. For each separate Honor loss from an action, a player may only take the seppuku Reaction once, per Resolving timing conflicts in Timing: "A player can not use the same Reaction or triggered trait twice to a single triggering occurrence from the same copy of a card, or from the rules."
As a consequence, even if several of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities performed or were targeted by that action, only one will commit seppuku this way. Since the Battle action from Game of Sincerity causes one Honor loss, this Reaction may only be taken once before the loss happens. I will fix the previous rulings above.
I'm now thoroughly confused by the whole Ring of the Phoenix, Game of Sincerity, seppuku nonsense.
If I can only seppuku once in response to a single honor loss, how is it different when someone plays 3 Assigning Blames in response to the destruction of a single personality?
I'm now thoroughly confused by the whole Ring of the Phoenix, Game of Sincerity, seppuku nonsense.
If I can only seppuku once in response to a single honor loss, how is it different when someone plays 3 Assigning Blames in response to the destruction of a single personality?
The difference is multiple copies. Again, with underlined emphasis and addendum in brackets,
http://rules.l5r.com/Timing#Resolving_timing_conflicts: "A player can not use the same Reaction or triggered trait twice to a single triggering occurrence from the same copy of a card, or from the rules [where there is also only effectively only one copy of said Reaction, no matter how many rulebooks you own -- BC]."
Color me surprised about the reversal, because this ruling about committing seppuku several times with different personalities has been stated for two months and a half.
Does this mean this ruling has been changed too?
My argument: Seppuku says: Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
I still think that any honor loss that is performed or targeted by more than one personality, has a different triggering for seppuku for each personality that performs or is targeted by the action.
E.g. I have a Doji Bob (courtier) and Kakita Jennifer (samurai) at the current battlefield. I announce Game of Sincerity. Doji Bob performs it and Kakita Jennifer is targeted by it. Therefore, I have two distinctive triggers for the seppuku: Trigger #1: before you lose Honor from an action that targeted Kakita Jennifer: She commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed her, reduce the Honor loss to one Trigger #2: before you lose Honor from an action that was performed by Doji Bob: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
Please explain what's wrong with this example.
Color me surprised about the reversal, because this ruling about committing seppuku several times with different personalities has been stated for two months and a half.
Does this mean this ruling has been changed too?
My argument: Seppuku says: Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
I still think that any honor loss that is performed or targeted by more than one personality, has a different triggering for seppuku for each personality that performs or is targeted by the action.
E.g. I have a Doji Bob (courtier) and Kakita Jennifer (samurai) at the current battlefield. I announce Game of Sincerity. Doji Bob performs it and Kakita Jennifer is targeted by it. Therefore, I have two distinctive triggers for the seppuku: Trigger #1: before you lose Honor from an action that targeted Kakita Jennifer: She commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed her, reduce the Honor loss to one Trigger #2: before you lose Honor from an action that was performed by Doji Bob: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
Please explain what's wrong with this example.
You know, I thought I had answered a question like this before. But I didn't bother digging it up, to spare myself the shame and embarrassment. So much for that, eh?
<-- There it is. There's the shame.
Anyway... the ruling that you linked is the same error as one that Bayushi Loïc made a month ago. There's nothing different about them, apart from the name of the single-honor-loss causing card (Coward! vs. Game of Sincerity), so there's no reason to think his reversal doesn't also apply to mine.
I see the logic in your example, but you can't break it down like that. Just because there are two different conditions under which the trigger applies doesn't mean there are two seperate triggers if BOTH conditions apply at the same time. The trigger is the Honor loss, which only occurs once.