A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 17 September 2008
I have a dishonorable Shugenja Personality that has been previously targeted by Utter Defeat.
I have a Temple to Shinsei in play.
If I use the action on the Temple to Shinsei with my Shugenja Personality: I will try to gain 2 Honor which will be cancelled by rulebook effect.
My Shugenja then tries to rehonor, that effects will then be negated by the continous effect of Utter Defeat.
Now my question is: what would happen if I played a Determination in reaction before I play the Temple to Shinsei's action? Will the rehonoring be considered as instead of the honor gained and thus a part of the action effects and so protected by the "cannot be negated part" of the Determination? Or is the rehonoring a completely distinct rulebook effect and so still be negated by Utter Defeat no matter what?
Relating card texts:
Utter Defeat Reaction: Before a Personality is destroyed by a battle resolution or for losing a duel: He is completely humiliated. Negate the destruction. Dishonor him. While he remains in play, he can not be rehonored, can not commit seppukku except from a card’s effect, and his controller loses 1 Honor after each of his Dynasty Phases begins.
Temple to Shinsei Limited: Bow this card and one of your target Monk or Shugenja Personalities: Gain 2 Honor.
Determination Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
A player, 17 September 2008
what would happen if I played a Determination in reaction before I play the Temple to Shinsei's action?
Thanks to Determination, the effect of that action ("gain 2 Honor") cannot be negated. Unfortunately the rulebook effect that would rehonor the performing Shugenja and prevent you from gaining 2 Honor is not a negation effect so Determination is powerless against it. As a consequence you gain no Honor and your Shugenja is not restored to honorable status.
Physically marked card states, Honorable and dishonorable (emphasis mine): "There are a number of ways to rehonor a dishonorable Personality. * Before a player gains Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, the Personality is rehonored and the Honor is not gained. [...] If, during one of these effects, the rehonoring is negated (for example, by "can not be rehonored" wording), the Honor is still not gained."
A player, 17 September 2008
concerning: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=70847
the question wasn't: "is the honor gained?" I was already quite convinced that that gain is not a negation (I use cancelled in my question to avoid the use of negation ^^) but is the Personality rehonored by the action's effects being under Determination or not?
In your answer I understand that the Personality is still dishonorable at the end of the action but I would like a perfectly clear answer about that.
Thank you for your time.
A player, 17 September 2008
is the Personality rehonored by the action's effects being under Determination or not?
No. The rehonoring is a rulebook effect, negated by Utter Defeat. Determination prevents the negation of the gain of 2 Honor from the action on your Temple to Shinsei but it doesn't extend to that rehonoring effect from the rulebook.