A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 23 May 2008
REgarding the ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68332, lets say I add another card to the chain of the effect.
I am playing Dragon Magistrates, using the new W&D person, Kitsuki Mayako (relevant text: After another player's Personality is dishonored: Gain 1 Honor. as a trait). I play Death peom during my limited phase, and start a heated discussion targeting a 2 chi beserker. I sneak in to the battle and Wounded in battle, reducing the Beserkers chi to 0. Heated discussion negates his death, dishonors him and Mayako gains me one honor. The person still has 0 chi, so therefore attempts to die again.
In accordance with the above ruling, I can have death poem rehonoring the personality before Heated Discussion dishonors him, netting me 1 honor from Mayako's trait. SInce Heated Discussion won't let the beserker die from having 0 chi, this effect will repeat, effectivly giving me hundreds of thousands of one honor trait triggers, before I start deciding to resolve Heated discussions negation first, so there is no honor to be gained.
Is this correct?
Edit: corrected a card, wounded in battle is legal, uncertainty is not (and does something completly different)
[Mod edit: title changed to reflect content for easier searching - ALJ]
Alex Jones (rules official), 30 May 2008
REgarding the ruling: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68332, lets say I add another card to the chain of the effect.
I am playing Dragon Magistrates, using the new W&D person, Kitsuki Mayako (relevant text: After another player's Personality is dishonored: Gain 1 Honor. as a trait). I play Death peom during my limited phase, and start a heated discussion targeting a 2 chi beserker. I sneak in to the battle and Wounded in battle, reducing the Beserkers chi to 0. Heated discussion negates his death, dishonors him and Mayako gains me one honor. The person still has 0 chi, so therefore attempts to die again.
This is not what happens.
Heated Discussion creates an ongoing conditional effect, rather than a continuous effect. There is a substitution of dishonour for death each time a death would occur, rather than a continuous negation of the death. As clarified here, an ongoing effect is insufficient to negate destruction from 0 chi:
This destruction from zero Chi is continuously applied. Special rules apply to its negation. Ongoing and instantaneous effects that negate destruction, such as the trait "Before this card is destroyed: Negate the destruction," will not negate destruction from zero Chi (see Effects). Only a continuous negation effect (for example, "This Personality cannot be destroyed" as a trait), or an effect that specifically refers to the zero Chi rule (for example, "Until the end of the turn, he is not destroyed for having 0 Chi") can overcome the Personality's destruction.
This rule also applies to effects that substitute some other effect, such as dishonoring, for destruction. If the substitution is continuous or refer specifically to zero Chi, the substitution is effective. In this case, the substitution happens once, and destruction from zero Chi is suspended while the conditions of substitution hold. If the substitution comes from an ongoing or instantaneous effect, then the substitution fails.
A player, 30 May 2008
I may just be stupid, but asking for clarification on this : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68345.
What exactly happens when I reduce a personality's chi to 0 during a heated discussion:
A) The death is negated and the 0 chi is ignored for the rest of the battle B) The death is negated, and the chi penalty is constantly re-checking and being negated C) The death is negated than...something I'm not seeing
Sorry if it's blatantly obvious and I'm missing something, but I can't make anythign regarding Heated Discussion and Chi death.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 30 May 2008
I may just be stupid, but asking for clarification on this : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68345.
What exactly happens when I reduce a personality's chi to 0 during a heated discussion:
A) The death is negated and the 0 chi is ignored for the rest of the battle B) The death is negated, and the chi penalty is constantly re-checking and being negated C) The death is negated than...something I'm not seeing
Sorry if it's blatantly obvious and I'm missing something, but I can't make anythign regarding Heated Discussion and Chi death.
D) None of the above.
Actually, thanks directly to your pointing out the 0-Chi/Heated Discussion infinity problem, the rules for 0 Chi death have recently been clarified in regard to substitution effects (emphasis mine below):
http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Specific_stats: "This destruction from zero Chi is continuously applied. Special rules apply to its negation. Ongoing and instantaneous effects that negate destruction, such as the trait "Before this card is destroyed: Negate the destruction," will not negate destruction from zero Chi (see Effects). Only a continuous negation effect (for example, "This Personality cannot be destroyed" as a trait), or an effect that specifically refers to the zero Chi rule (for example, "Until the end of the turn, he is not destroyed for having 0 Chi") can overcome the Personality's destruction.
This rule also applies to effects that substitute some other effect, such as dishonoring, for destruction. If the substitution is continuous or refer specifically to zero Chi, the substitution is effective. In this case, the substitution happens once, and destruction from zero Chi is suspended while the conditions of substitution hold. If the substitution comes from an ongoing or instantaneous effect, then the substitution fails.
[CLARIFIED and expanded to cover substitution, May 30 2008]"
Now, the instantaneous effect of substituting dishonor for death fails in the specific case of death from 0 Chi. He's dead, Jim.