Say determination is used in conjunction with a card to kill Sozen, and courage in death or razor of the dawn is used to delay his destruction. Do the effects of Determination still apply when the delay effect is finished? i.e. Can sozen once again negate the destruction after the end of the turn or the battle?
determination vs Hida Sozen + delay destruction
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Say determination is used in conjunction with a card to kill Sozen, and courage in death or razor of the dawn is used to delay his destruction. Do the effects of Determination still apply when the delay effect is finished?
Yes. Nothing has changed about the effect except when it's applied. He dies.
On: Hida Sozen, Determination
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67920
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715&p=789676
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67829&p=873928&hilit=Hida+Sozen#p873928
using these as references... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated. However, An action resolves even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur. Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal EXCEPTION: Some effects may be delayed (see Delayed effects) and are applied at a later time in the game than they resolve.
A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time. A delayed effect that has been activated, but not yet applied, can still be negated by something that negates effects in general, such as "all effects from other players' cards." However, something that negates a specific type of effect, such as bowing, will only negate a delayed effect when it is actually applied.
Player A plays Determination and Announces Hired Killer, the Action Resolves and Hida Sozen is about to be Destroyed (and thus, removed from the game via Determination) but Player B delays the Death with Razor of the Dawn.
from my understanding of the rules the Result is... Determination activates and Resolves "even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur." Hired Killer Activates and Resolves, with its effect applied at a Future Time. At the end of the turn, the destruction effect is applied but negated by Hida Sozens ability.
since Determination does not have an Ongoing effect (no While, Permanent or Until trigger) or an Continuous effects (due to the trigger "After") it no longer interferes with Sozen's ability to negate the death.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67920
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=61715&p=789676
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67829&p=873928&hilit=Hida+Sozen#p873928
using these as references... An action ends after its last effect is applied, if that effect is not a delayed effect. If an action's last effect is delayed, then the action ends instead after that effect is activated. However, An action resolves even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur. Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal EXCEPTION: Some effects may be delayed (see Delayed effects) and are applied at a later time in the game than they resolve.
A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time. A delayed effect that has been activated, but not yet applied, can still be negated by something that negates effects in general, such as "all effects from other players' cards." However, something that negates a specific type of effect, such as bowing, will only negate a delayed effect when it is actually applied.
Player A plays Determination and Announces Hired Killer, the Action Resolves and Hida Sozen is about to be Destroyed (and thus, removed from the game via Determination) but Player B delays the Death with Razor of the Dawn.
from my understanding of the rules the Result is... Determination activates and Resolves "even if all its effects are negated or otherwise do not occur." Hired Killer Activates and Resolves, with its effect applied at a Future Time. At the end of the turn, the destruction effect is applied but negated by Hida Sozens ability.
since Determination does not have an Ongoing effect (no While, Permanent or Until trigger) or an Continuous effects (due to the trigger "After") it no longer interferes with Sozen's ability to negate the death.
Determination applies to all its action's effects: immediate, delayed and ongoing.
At the end of the turn, Hida Sozen dies and is removed from the game.