A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 11 April 2008
Okay this is my last question about Determination, I hope and promise. I did check several rulings about the cards in this question, but I wanted to make sure what I interpreted was right. 1. Player A has Muketsu, a samurai in play, and a ring 2. Player B has a personality with 1 chi and a Resilient Naginata or a Gift Armor equipped 3. Player A bows a ring, plays Determination then gives Player B's personality a -2 Chi token
Will this remove from play/kill Player B's personality?
Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
Resilient Naginata: Negate all Chi penalties on this Personality.
Gift Armor: Negate all Chi penalties on this Personality.
I assume since it was ruled that chi penalty tokens are card effects, Determination will trump the two items, but I wanted to verify.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 11 April 2008
Okay this is my last question about Determination, I hope and promise. I did check several rulings about the cards in this question, but I wanted to make sure what I interpreted was right. 1. Player A has Muketsu, a samurai in play, and a ring 2. Player B has a personality with 1 chi and a Resilient Naginata or a Gift Armor equipped 3. Player A bows a ring, plays Determination then gives Player B's personality a -2 Chi token
Will this remove from play/kill Player B's personality?
Determination: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
Resilient Naginata: Negate all Chi penalties on this Personality.
Gift Armor: Negate all Chi penalties on this Personality.
I assume since it was ruled that chi penalty tokens are card effects, Determination will trump the two items, but I wanted to verify.
Actually, no. Determination will not allow Muketsu's Chi penalty token to affect a Personality with either Item. Both Items produce a continous negation effect that stops Chi penalties.
Determination is, itself, a non-continuous negation effect (it negates negation) using "can not" wording, and it does not specify a period of time. As such, it falls squarely here (emphasis mine):
http://rules.l5r.com/Effects#Duration_of_negation_effects: "If a non-continuous negation effect uses “can not” wording, (such as, “Battle: A target Personality cannot gain Force bonuses,”) this is an ongoing effect that follows the normal rules of duration, prevents instantaneous effects from happening, and prevents new ongoing effects from taking place. “Can not” wording does not normally interfere with existing ongoing or continuous effects."
If you read further down in the linked section, you'll find that the only two instances of negation that can stop continuous effects are those that specify a period of time (the paragraph directly below the one I quoted) or those specifically stating that they negate effects from actions (the Exception at the section's end). Determination does neither.
Edit: Ruling Tentative. Under discussion by the Rules Junta.
Edit #2: Reversed; Inconsistency in the CR which led to the above ruling has been fixed. See below.
A player, 12 April 2008
Wow, thought I understood Determination, but now I'm confused.
Refering to: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67083
1) Following the example given, am I correct in understanding that the effect of Muketsu's reaction is to give the -2C token (all of which is protected by Determination), but when the -2Chi token attempts to assert itself Determination's protective effect is now complete and that's why the Gift Armour or Reilient Naginata are able to ward off the effects?
2) If Muketsu's ability gave -2Chi (as an effect instead of a token, only for this example) and Determination was used, it would then be able to affect (and destroy) target personality through the items, Yes?
A player, 15 April 2008
Rules about duration of negation effects have just changed (see below, emphasis added).
Effects, Duration of negation effects: "If a non-continuous negation effect uses “can not” wording, (such as, “Battle: A target Personality cannot be bowed,”) this is an ongoing effect that follows the normal rules of duration, prevents instantaneous effects from happening, prevents new ongoing effects from taking place, and negates ongoing or continuous effects."
As a consequence, Determination allows Muketsu's Chi penalty token to affect a Personality with either Item because Determination negates their trait's continuous negation effect. If this drops the Personality's Chi to zero, she is detroyed by Muketsu's action (see below: From and Token) then she is removed from the game by Determination's last effect. The answer would be the same for an action which would give a -2C penalty rather than a -2C token.
Glossary, From: "A Personality’s destruction for having 0 Chi comes from the effect that last gave the Personality a Chi penalty, or from the rulebook if there was no such effect." Glossary, Token: "Effects of tokens, such as bonuses or penalties to stats, come from the card that created the token."