Isawa's Void

L5R CCG Rules board, 10 December 2007 to 11 December 2007

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 10 December 2007

If I'm reading this right, can Isawa's Void be used to return ANY action card that does not remove itself from the game, or otherwise gives specific directives as to where it goes after it's effects resolve, to your hand?

Isawa's Void: Reaction: After you discard a Fate card due to a cost or effect from a card (including the discarded card), destroy this Spell: Before your next turn ends, put the discarded card in your hand.

From Comprehensive Rules: Action cards do not normally enter play. Instead, they are played from the hand for one of their abilities, or used as a card to focus in a duel or to discard. Some Action cards may have special effects when the card is used for another purpose, such as focusing in a duel.

To play an Action card in his or her hand for one of its abilities, a player first checks whether it is a legal point in time to use the ability, and whether the action can otherwise be legally taken (including being able to met required costs, required targeting, and other restrictions). If these conditions are met, the player then follows this sequence:

A. The player puts the Action card face-up in a resolution area, which is created for that card. B. The player announces which ability on the card is to be used. The action then proceeds (see Abilities and actions.) C. After the action ends, the player discards the Action card, even if the action did not resolve.

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 11 December 2007

(C)an Isawa's Void be used to return ANY action card that does not remove itself from the game, or otherwise gives specific directives as to where it goes after it's effects resolve, to your hand?

I am very reluctant to try to give out complete lists of what a card can or cannot do, as it's very easy to overlook something.

That said, one case where you couldn't use Isawa's Void would be to return a card you focused in a duel, because it it discarded neither due to a cost nor card effect.

A player, 11 December 2007

RE: This.

Pardon me, but the above answer appears to miss the main thrust of the question.

As I understand things:

1. Isawa's Void returns cards that are discarded as part of a cost or effect from a card.

2. The above asker wants to know if Isawa's Void returns pretty much every Action card, because they mostly all are discarded after being played.

Isn't the answer, simply, "The general rule in the rulebook causing an Action card to be discarded after being played is neither a cost nor an effect from a card, so Isawa's Void will not retrieve it."?

This doesn't seem to me to require a comprehensive list to answer, as the original reply asserted. Also, I find the answerer's reference to Focus Effects misleading, as this would hardly be the only time Isawa's Void wouldn't work, but it's the only time mentioned directly.

All of this under the assumption that I'm correct, of course. Please do reply, and let me (and, by extension, the original poster) know if that's the case. Thank you.

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 11 December 2007

RE: This.

Pardon me, but the above answer appears to miss the main thrust of the question.

As I understand things:

1. Isawa's Void returns cards that are discarded as part of a cost or effect from a card.

2. The above asker wants to know if Isawa's Void returns pretty much every Action card, because they mostly all are discarded after being played.

Isn't the answer, simply, "The general rule in the rulebook causing an Action card to be discarded after being played is neither a cost nor an effect from a card, so Isawa's Void will not retrieve it."?

This doesn't seem to me to require a comprehensive list to answer, as the original reply asserted. Also, I find the answerer's reference to Focus Effects misleading, as this would hardly be the only time Isawa's Void wouldn't work, but it's the only time mentioned directly.

All of this under the assumption that I'm correct, of course. Please do reply, and let me (and, by extension, the original poster) know if that's the case. Thank you.

A player, 11 December 2007

MacBeth for the most part answered my question:

1. Isawa's Void returns cards that are discarded as part of a cost or effect from a card.

2. The above asker wants to know if Isawa's Void returns pretty much every Action card, because they mostly all are discarded after being played.

Isn't the answer, simply, "The general rule in the rulebook causing an Action card to be discarded after being played is neither a cost nor an effect from a card, so Isawa's Void will not retrieve it."?

*I wanted to show that I did review the rule prior to asking the question, but it seems like all I did was make things more confusing.*

1q. What I was hoping for was a card that would let me re-use fate cards after using them (namely Impromptu Duel, First and Final Strike, and Warriors Challenge). I assume from MacBeth and Mr. Faulkes answer that Isawa's Void does NOT do this, is this correct?

2q. Why can it not be used to reclaim focus cards? Aren't they an "effect" from a duel?

Thanks!

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 11 December 2007

What I was hoping for was a card that would let me re-use fate cards after using them(.)

It doesn't do that.

Why can it not be used to reclaim focus cards? Aren't they an "effect" from a duel?

It's a rulebook, not card, effect.

Sorry I misunderstood the thrust of the earlier question.