If tokaro targets a personality and a singular holding, of which you already control a copy, does the opponent have to kill the personality (by refusing, albeit unwillingly, to giving you the holding) as you cannot take control of the holding, or can the opponent choose to give you the holding and Tokaro's effect 'fizzles' as it were, leaving the personality alive?
Yoritomo Tokaro and Singular holdings
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from the Wayback Machine (its copy), so posts it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
If tokaro targets a personality and a singular holding, of which you already control a copy, does the opponent have to kill the personality (by refusing, albeit unwillingly, to giving you the holding) as you cannot take control of the holding, or can the opponent choose to give you the holding and Tokaro's effect 'fizzles' as it were, leaving the personality alive?
Rules Archive, General Rules, Decisions. You can't pick an option you know will fail.
On: Yoritomo Tokaro
So this means that Mantis player cannot choose Singular holding in first place, or player who has a choice has to kill his personality ?
Hello.
That means that when you have to choose between give the holding or
let them destroy te personality you cant choose give the holding and you
must choose to let Torako destroy the personality.
Greetings.
Why do we keep ending up with cards that start out being a choice and can be forced by circumstance into lack of choice and a major screwing at that.
This should be simple, you attempt to give them the holding and they cant have it.
This is quite dumb if its allowed to stand. Is it b0Rken?
No, not hardly, but its still pretty damn stupid.
Instead of letting things like this happen, fix the source of the problem.
This rulebook is starting to look like a refugee from a world war its got so many bandaids on it.....
Thanks Zen
Alright...
How is this ruling being determined.
Zen quotes the general rule that you cant choose an action that you know will fail.
Ok thats logical, but why does it fail.
Heres the ruling on singular and controling/giving/returning.
If a card is supposed to be returned to a player (e.g., Otomo Ambassadors, Show of Good Faith) who cannot have a copy of that card (e.g., the Singular trait), the card stays where it is until it can be legally returned. [Summary of other rulings]
Umm what summary?
Can you please break this down?
Thanks
BUMPAGE!
Can you please break this down?
It's the difference between a new effect and an existing effect ending. In one case, a card is supposed to be given. In another, a card is supposed to be returned.
On: Yoritomo Tokaro
Zen Faulkes wrote:Brutal_Deluxe wrote:
If tokaro targets a personality and a singular holding, of which you already control a copy, does the opponent have to kill the personality (by refusing, albeit unwillingly, to giving you the holding) as you cannot take control of the holding, or can the opponent choose to give you the holding and Tokaro's effect 'fizzles' as it were, leaving the personality alive?
Rules Archive, General Rules, Decisions. You can't pick an option you know will fail.
Does it make a difference if only part of the choice is something that will fail?
In Tokaro's case, there are two options:
* have the personality die at the end of battles, or
* give control of the holding and send the personality home bowed.
So, the control change will certainly fail, but unless something prevents the Personality from moving, this part of the effect will not fail.
Is the "partial failure" enough to prevent the player from choosing the second option?
The Defender may give you permanent control of the Holding.
That's the entire beginning and ending of the decision: Do you give it to him or not?
The effects that follow are not part of the decision. They are further effects of the Action that just happen to be conditional based on the outcome of that decision.
On: Yoritomo Tokaro
Alright...
How is this ruling being determined.
Zen quotes the general rule that you cant choose an action that you know will fail.
Ok thats logical, but why does it fail.
Heres the ruling on singular and controling/giving/returning.
If a card is supposed to be returned to a player (e.g., Otomo Ambassadors, Show of Good Faith) who cannot have a copy of that card (e.g., the Singular trait), the card stays where it is until it can be legally returned. [Summary of other rulings]
Umm what summary?
Can you please break this down?
Thanks
Everyone missed what I was asking.
Can someone breakdown what the Summary of other rulings is?
In the end you can only choose do not give control of the holding , because it´s a ilegal option give the holding to the player. So you need destroy your personality in the end.
Can someone breakdown what the Summary of other rulings is?
There were a few specific card rulings that are now mentioned as examples, like Otomo Ambassadors.
On: Yoritomo Tokaro