A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from the Wayback Machine (its copy), so posts it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
The action generating Ranged Attacks may be performed by a Tactician who is not in the battle. [JA, 18 November 2004]
And here's the card text for reference:
Rain of Death
Center Formation Formed by 2 Personalities with the printed Tactician trait. Tactical Battle: Produce two consecutive Ranged 3 Attacks.
Tactical Battle: Bow and destroy the performing Tactician: Target two cards opposing him that have no unbowed cards attached. Destroy them.
Considering the rules about Ranged Attacks and opposition, this leads to Jeff's ruling meaning that the Formation is producing the Range Attack since it's in the Battle, and the Tactician isn't.
Okay, now back to the RA and opposition rulings. Does this mean that the Formation opposes the "Enemy Leader's" (I love that term) army to perform the RA?
This makes sense thematically in the sense of combat, but it also sets a precident. We were just hoping that we could get a clarification here.
Only rules officials need apply . Thanks in advance.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 February 2005
Does this mean that the Formation opposes the "Enemy Leader's" army to perform the RA?
No. Action cards never enter play (Rules Archive, General Rules, Entering play, so they can't oppose anything.
Okay, so the Formation creates a "floating effect". How are the Tacticians at home performing the RA's given the usual rules for producing an RA?
Does the lack of the keyword "opposing" on the RA ability simple make the Formation produce an RA similar to Tsuruchi Tech or Arrow From the Woods, that has no source in the battle, you just have to fill the requirements to make it happen?
A player, 9 February 2005
I tought it was possible to bow a formation with "well prepared" and a terrain
but how can we do that if the formation does not enter play?
imho, formations and terrains enter play because they are not immediatly discarded
Events and Action cards that are immediately discarded do not enter play. [Reversal, JA, email, 9 August 2004]
Martin Lund (rules official), 9 February 2005
Zen Faulkes wrote:
Yasuki Yamakori wrote:
Does this mean that the Formation opposes the "Enemy Leader's" army to perform the RA?
No. Action cards never enter play (Rules Archive, General Rules, Entering play, so they can't oppose anything.
Just to clarify here, Formations and Terrains certainly enter play, but they never are part of or enter into any army, hence they can never be opposing or opposed.
You use the same definition of "opposing" for Ranged Attacks from Rain of Death that you use for Tsuruchi Technique and Arrows from the Woods - opposing your cards in the current battle.
- Marty Lund
Deputy Rules Monkey
A player, 9 February 2005
Zen Faulkes wrote:
Yasuki Yamakori wrote:
Does this mean that the Formation opposes the "Enemy Leader's" army to perform the RA?
No. Action cards never enter play (Rules Archive, General Rules, Entering play, so they can't oppose anything.
Since Jeff ruled that the tactician doesn't need to be present at the battle for the RA and RA's always targets a card opposing the card or cards making the ranged attack (DE rulebook page 90) and the definition for opposing is for a card or unit (DE rulebook page 102) it seems clear to me that cards not part of units can be in play and that Rain of Death in particular must be in play so it can have opposing cards to target with the RA action.
A player, 9 February 2005
You use the same definition of "opposing" for Ranged Attacks from Rain of Death that you use for Tsuruchi Technique and Arrows from the Woods - opposing your cards in the current battle.
Thanks Marty, that's all I needed to read.
A player, 9 February 2005
How does this interact with the fact that the Tactician is performing the action?
What is the difference between Armed Brigade and Rain of Death?
Armed Brigade
Flank Formation Formed by three Personalities, each with an Item. Battle: Bow two of your Items to bow an opposing Personality.
Why do the items have to be opposing, and the performing Tactician doesn't?
A player, 9 February 2005
Hello.
"Battle: Bow two of your Items to bow an opposing Personality."
In that formation,the items must be opposing the personality.They are in the costs of the action "X to do Y".
In RoD "Tactical Battle: Produce two consecutive Ranged 3 Attacks"
this action has no costs, select one of your Tacticians isnt a cost and it doesnt
target them (since DotE, no card targets unless it says so)
Greetings.
A player, 9 February 2005
Fully aware that RoD is costless.
Armed Brigade was probably a bad example actually, but it's the first one I found.
I'm just trying to find the train of thought I had earlier about the wider applicability and the general rule.
OK, so when an action explicitly references a card (or cards) as a target or as part of the cost, any "opposing x" must be an x opposing the referenced card or cards.
Two things, I would have expected an implicit reference to follow the same rules and how do we read an action which involves a card as part of the effect (ie. doesn't target and doesn't use a card as a cost). For, hypothetical, example an action that read "Battle: Send a Samurai you control home. Produce a Ranged 4 Attack."
Am I complicating things?
A player, 9 February 2005
RoD is costless? no cost at all? Great! I'll include it in all my decks. I've got this phoenix deck, not a tactician in it, that loves ranged attacks... The fact of the matter is, all tactical actions have to use someone's use of the tactician trait. that is a cost. If you have 4 tacticians, you can use RoD 4 times. If you have 8 tacticians, you can use it 8 times. In a world where the frequency at which I may do something is determined by the resources I have at my disposal, that thing I'm doing has a cost. Since, with the exception of Kaneka and Akodo, once I use the tactician trait, I may not do so again. I've used a resource (tactician) to pay for something (a tactical action).
Reference: DE rulebook, p.92.
"Such Personalities have the Tactician trait, and are the only Personalities allowed to perform Tactical actions. A Personality may only perform one Tactical action per battle."
Even if it is ruled that there is no "cost" in this, it is indisputable that tactical personalities perform tactical actions. There is no other legal way to play a tactical action, except that a Tactician perform it.
Martin Lund (rules official), 9 February 2005
Even if it is ruled that there is no "cost" in this, it is indisputable that tactical personalities perform tactical actions. There is no other legal way to play a tactical action, except that a Tactician perform it.
They certainly perform Tactical actions. However, Tactical does not add any cost to an Action. It simply puts a requirement that the Action be Performed by an elligible Tactician. Performing such an Action does not of itself implicitly require you to be in a particular location. Only explicit mention in the ability's text can make such a requirement, and the keyword "Tactical" does not count as such.
I don't know if I'm understanding this well, but, this means that as long as you have two tactician in the battle, you can produce infinite battle actions/ranged attacks?
A player, 9 February 2005
Personalities can still only perform one tactical action per battle.
A player, 9 February 2005
So now that we're definately sure that the tactician is, in fact, performing the action, exactly how is it again that a tactician not at the battle can perform a ranged attack, much less 2?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 February 2005
Martin Lund wrote:
Just to clarify here, Formations and Terrains certainly enter play, but they never are part of or enter into any army, hence they can never be opposing or opposed.
Nice o' Marty to say "clarify" when he really means "correct." I forgot Rain of Death was a Formation... Sorry. Luckily, I arrived at the right answer anyway.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 February 2005
[H]ow is it again that a tactician not at the battle can perform a ranged attack, much less 2?
What rule would prevent it? There's no rule that Tactyicians can only perform Tactical actions in a battle. No rule that performing an action during a battle has to be performed by a card in the battle. And so on.
So now that we're definately sure that the tactician is, in fact, performing the action, exactly how is it again that a tactician not at the battle can perform a ranged attack, much less 2?
They use really big bows.
Seriously, lion very rarely have a tactician at home anyway and the 2 ranged 3s aren't the thing to worry about unless you're playing crane because all your guys are 4-7 force anyway. ok, or ratling.
A player, 9 February 2005
Zen,
I believe the question now is does Rain of Blood Suspend the normal restriction on ranged attack listed on pg. 90?
A ranged attack must target a single card opposing the card or cards making the ranged attack: either a Follower or a Personality with no Followers.
To me, Rain of Death allows any tactician to make a ranged attack, but that ranged attack still must comform to the restiction of targetting an opposing follower or a personality without follower. So a tactician not targetting an opposing follower or an opposing personality without followers would therefore be making an illegal targeting selection, and thus the ranged attack would fail. Am I wrong to read it this way?
Regards,
Joe Harney
Bayushi Kenshin
www.living-Rokugan.com
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 February 2005
I believe the question now is does Rain of Blood Suspend the normal restriction on ranged attack listed on pg. 90?
Effects come from the card with the action. What "performs" the action is irrelevant.
Exactly! That's exactly the point. Nowhere on the card does it ignore any sort of targeting restriction, so, unless the formation is performing the ranged attack... But oh wait, formations aren't part of armies, so if it's coming from them, it's not targeting opposing either. I guess all I'm asking for is an explanation as to the reasoning of this, and why it makes sense. I was always told that unless a card specifically contradicts the rules, you obey all rules restrictions, such as ranged attacks being performed must target opposing units. It's already been established that if a tactical action is being performed, a tactician is performing it. Since the personality is performing the ranged attack, it is NOT a floating ranged attack, like Tsuruchi technique. Or is my logic somewhat flawed here?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 February 2005
It's already been established that if a tactical action is being performed, a tactician is performing it. Since the personality is performing the ranged attack, it is NOT a floating ranged attack, like Tsuruchi technique. Or is my logic somewhat flawed here?
To repeat: what card performs the attack does not matter. The source of the attack is the Formation. The Formation is not in an army. Therefore, it cannot be opposing any other card, and get around the usual Ranged Attack requirements in the same way that Arrows From the Woods and Tsuruchi Technique does.