Saemon and consecutive ranged attacks

What happens when Saemon gets hit with an action that produces multiple ranged attacks as its effects?(e.g. Kuro's Fire,Ikoma Korin XP)

a)He gets to react to each ranged attack targetting him,gaining a follower,and is thus practically immune to such actions.

b)He only gets to react once,and is fair game for the rest of them.

I used to think it was a,as the rulebook states that "each printed instance of a reaction on an unbowed card can be used once per trigger",

and multiple targetting by multiple ranged attacks sounds like it fits the bill.

After watching the thread about Saemon & Tangen sensei,however,I'm beginning to doubt that.

In that thread,Jeff said that redirectioncan happen an infinite number of times,but it still counts only once for Saemons reaction because it is the same action,ergo the same trigger(or something to that effect).

If,for example,Saemon is targeted bu 3 Kuro's-produced consecutive ranged attacks,he is still actually being targeted by only one action-Kuro's.Based on the above,does that mean that Saemon can only react once-say,to the first ranged attack-and is vulnerable to the rest of them?

Hello.

I)i- 1st ranged to Saemon

ii- Saemon reacts (he is target of an action's effect)

iii- Saemon has a follower now => the target is ilegal=> the ranged fails

II)Saemon now has a follower=> RA must target the follower now

i- 2nd ranged, to the follower

ii-the follower dies and is removed from the game

III) Saemon has no followers now=> he is a legal target to the RA

i- 1st ranged to Saemon

ii- Saemon reacts (he is target of an action's effect)

iii- Saemon has a follower now => the target is ilegal=> the ranged fails

IV)go to II.

Each ranged to Saemon is a action's effect that targets him=>he can react

Greetings.

That's not my point.

All the effects(in this case,ranged attacks) targetting saemon are part of ONE action.Therefore,Saemon is being targeted by ONE action MULTIPLE times.

Shouldn't what Jeff said in the thread about Saemon-Tangen sensei-redirection(the same action can be redirected to Saemon any numbber of times[therefore,in effect,targetting him any number of times],but,as it's the same action,Saemon can use his reaction only once) apply to this case as well?

Hello.

"Elemental Battle: Bow this Shugenja to make a number of consecutive

ranged attacks up to the Shugenja's Chi. The ranged attacks' total

strength cannot exceed the Shugenja's Force plus Chi.(Consecutive

ranged attacks are targeted and resolved at one time.)"

Kuro's fire doesnt target, it creates RA effects that will target.

Each RA has to pick a target, so it is a diferent targeting trigger.

Targeting for these RA is not declared at once.(Card text) they happen

in diferent times.

You are not reacting to the same targeting again and again like in the

Tangen re-redirection

Greetings.

Don't be so quick here, I see this guy's point. What he's saying is this:

Kuro's fire (1 action)isn't fully resolved until each and every ranged attack goes off, is targeted, and resolves.

Ranged attack 1 from action - Saemon gets follower

Ranged attack is illegal and fails.

Ranged attack 2 from same action targets follower

Follower dies.

Ranged attack 3 targets Saemon.

Saemon can only react once per printed reaction to any one action, and the same action still targets him. Saemon cannot react again, and dies.

Kuro's Fire is multiple ranged attacks which target, but only one action. Thus, you can't Same old tricks it, and if you flee the darkness, it stops the whole thing. The upside is that it gets around printed ranged attack reactions a little more easily than most.

Saemon can only react once per printed reaction to any one action, and the same action still targets him.

actually, what the rulebook says is

Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can only be used once per trigger.

Kuro's Fire makes one big action but several instances of targeting, meaning multiple triggers going into effect, meaning several triggers Saemon can react to.

I stand corrected. I bow before your grasp of the rules. Saemon is hard to stop without ranged attacks that bypass followers, or Fall on your knees.

I stand corrected. I bow before your grasp of the rules.

my batting average on rules in this forum is lousy, for some reason. I got lucky this time.

Saemon is hard to stop without ranged attacks that bypass followers, or Fall on your knees.

FoYK won't do you much good since he just react again.

Kuro's Fire makes one big action but several instances of targeting, meaning multiple triggers going into effect, meaning several triggers Saemon can react to.

Ah,but that's my point.Does it?Since the effects are all part of the same action,if i choose to affect only one target,am I targetting him more than once?

I know this is difficult to grasp.Logically,one would say yes.But I'm talking from an l5r-rules perspective here.We're talking about ONE action.Some of its effects go to one personality.Does that mean that the action targets the personality multiple times(it would have to,if each individual effect is concidered to be individually targetting)?

But even if it does,Saemon says(and this is the important part):

Reaction:After another player's action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token.

Action.Not effect.

Are the multiple ranged attacksfrom Kuro's each concidered to be a different action?I don't think so.I think they are ONE.And if that is true,

then Saemon can react to it only once,nomatter how many times it targets him,if indeed it targets him more than once(see also the thread about saemon-tangen-redirection,I thing it backs me up).If he did,he would be reacting to a speciffic trigger(one action targetting him-nomatter how many times)with one printed instance of a reaction(his own)

more than once.And that's not legal.

I'd really appreciate an official ruling about this.

Hello.

If effects of an action wouldnt be part of the action, then:

Kuros fire (the action) would not target, as only the RA effects would target.

So you could not play flee the darkness, misdirection,etc againt any RA card,

overwelmed,Tarako,steel on steel.......as by your definition a targeting in the

effects isnt a targeting in the action.

Maybe you are misreading the new templates:

action:costs(and some targeting):conditional,effects(and some more targeting)

So Kuro's means more or less this:

Battle:bow this shugenja:make a RA# to target personality or follower,then make

a RA# to target ...., then make another RA# to ......

the total strength of RA's cant be more than the caster's F+C.

Greetings.

Hello.

If effects of an action wouldnt be part of the action, then:

Kuros fire (the action) would not target, as only the RA effects would target.

So you could not play flee the darkness, misdirection,etc againt any RA card,

overwelmed,Tarako,steel on steel.......as by your definition a targeting in the

effects isnt a targeting in the action.

Maybe you are misreading the new templates:

action:costs(and some targeting):conditional,effects(and some more targeting)

So Kuro's means more or less this:

Battle:bow this shugenja:make a RA# to target personality or follower,then make

a RA# to target ...., then make another RA# to ......

the total strength of RA's cant be more than the caster's F+C.

Greetings.

Maybe my previous post was a bit confusing...

To simplify:

Since Saemon's trigerr is"when he is targeted by another player's ACTION",not "another player'sEFFECT",then,even if that action targets him multiple times through the course of its(the action's)completion,he can only react to it ONCEwith his(Saemon's)printed instance of the reaction.

Isn't that correct?

P.S.Oh,and the new templating doesn't work for cards printed before DOTE.

To simplify:

Since Saemon's trigerr is"when he is targeted by another player's ACTION",not "another player'sEFFECT",then,even if that action targets him multiple times through the course of its(the action's)completion,he can only react to it ONCEwith his(Saemon's)printed instance of the reaction.

Isn't that correct?

My guess is that it is wrong. "by another player's action" should be the source of the targetting, not the trigger itself. I understand this as "when he is targeted, and what targets is another player's action", so each target is a different trigger (I would not be so sure if the ranged attack were simultaneous (I know it's stupid, it is just for the example) because one could argue that it is only one targetting, with twice the same target chosen).

You kinda understand it as "when another player plays an action, if the action targets him". That seems less straightforward to me. It is more likely the former.

Togashi Imura

Hope it helped

Either way,one should wait until the official guys say yes or no.It would make things so much simpler.I mean,that is why Kenshi posted it here in the first place

Because every player can have a different opinion about it and noone can easily prove the other player wrong by simply quoting the rulebook.Now if it were a question that had already been answered,it would make perfect sense for other people to just say:Aswer is X because it has already been quoted in Y post or something,cause that`d also save the rule guys time

Ranged attack 1 from action - Saemon gets follower

Ranged attack is illegal and fails.

So what you are saying, is that the attack does not go off and they cannot reassign to the follower?

Quote:

Ranged attack 1 from action - Saemon gets follower

Ranged attack is illegal and fails.

So what you are saying, is that the attack does not go off and they cannot reassign to the follower?

Correct. Rules page 75, bottom in italics.

My guess is that it is wrong. "by another player's action" should be the source of the targetting, not the trigger itself. I understand this as "when he is targeted, and what targets is another player's action", so each target is a different trigger (I would not be so sure if the ranged attack were simultaneous (I know it's stupid, it is just for the example) because one could argue that it is only one targetting, with twice the same target chosen).

You kinda understand it as "when another player plays an action, if the action targets him". That seems less straightforward to me. It is more likely the former.

Togashi Imura

Hope it helped

That's what I thought at first.But then I saw Jeff's responce on the Saemon-Tangen sensei-redirection thread.Basically,he said that,through Tangen redirection,an action can be made to target Saemon any number of times(e.g.OiC when an attack is declared);however,it is still the same action.Therefore, Saemon can only react to it once.

Isn't it the same with Kuro's?Saemon gets targeted by multiple effects of the same action,ergo he is targeted multiple times BY THE SAME ACTION.Since his trigger is:"After another player’s action-not effect-targets Saemon",he shouldn't be able to react to it more than once.The fact that he's being targeted by separate effects doesn't matter:they still constitute ONE action(unless they change the rules and make all separate ranged attacks produced by Kuro's actions on their own right-and believe me,I wouldn't mind that at all.Easiest ring of water I'll ever play,as a Phoenix).

I agree that Saemon was probably designed with the intent to be able to react to any effect that targets him.But that's not the way he is printed.Unless an MRP comes around,his card still has "another player's action targetting him" as his trigger.You can't say that the trigger is something else.

Anyway,since the Mouzaka championship here in Greece is barely a week away,could someone from the rules team please post an official reply?

Kuro's Fire is a single action that targets multiple times. Each time the action targets(the trigger), a reaction to targeting may be played. However, if I play Fall on your knees, canceling the reaction, it still counts as that printed reaction being attempted... You could no longer react with Saemon's ability until the trigger (another targeting) occurs. Unfortunately, by the time another targeting happens, Saemon will likely be dead, and thus unable to react. The action may have been canceled, but the player still reacted with that printed ability. That counts against the "once per trigger" limit.

There is some confusion as to whether ranged attacks are actions, or whether they are created by actions. The answer to both is yes, conditionally. If an action produces a single ranged attack (tsuruchi technique, etc) the ranged attack is the action. If the action creates multiple ranged attacks (the fires from within, Kuro's fire), then the action is comprised of multiple ranged attacks, each targeted and resolved seperately. Something that cancels a ranged attack will stop one of those ranged attacks. Something that cancels an action will cancel all of them.

A similar effect is Retribution. You attack me, and resolve battles at my provinces. Immediately after this, I play Retribution. This action creates an attack, and the action won't fully be resolved until that attack phase is completed. I can assign Shugenja A to province 1, resolve province 2, cast essence of gaki-do to create a bunch of 2/2's, take the province, resolve province 1, bow Shugenja A to cast a force kiho, use sezaru at home to straighten all my shugenja, take province 1, and pass on provinces 3 and 4. As soon as this is all done, the game returns to the precise point is was at when I played retribution... At which point, I could play another retribution, and gaki-do province 3. I've done this in the past, it makes people cry.

However, if I play Fall on your knees, canceling the reaction, it still counts as that printed reaction being attempted... You could no longer react with Saemon's ability until the trigger (another targeting) occurs.

no. cancel means it never took place and therefore Saemon can just react again. that's why it's never a good idea to cancel a Reaction on a card in play that doesn't have a cost, ie Tangen Sensei, Nizomi, Saemon. if it were negated, however, then he wouldn't be able to react again until something else triggers it.

1st off, redirection has its own set of rules. As stated in that thread, when you redirect an action, it's treated as the new target had been the target all along, hence you can't redirect between 2 saemons and create a bajollion of them. This is different, because Kuro's Fire is targeting Saemon multiple times. Yes, Action is the key word, and each time the action targets saemon, he can create a ninja as a reaction. Nowhere in the rules does it say that an action only targets something once. Tell me this: Why do you consider the first pop from Kuro's Fire an action, and the rest an "effect"?? That really doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it, there is no "effect" at all. It's an action that's targeting Saemon multiple times. As such, each of these must be played out accordingly.

Furthermore, I think you're bolding the wrong word in Saemon's ability.

[quote Isawa Kenshi] Reaction:After another player's action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token. [/quote]

of course it's only one action. It's targeting him multiple times, it doesn't say "Reaction: After the first time another player's action targets"

hence can be used no matter how many times you target him.

-H

Why do you consider the first pop from Kuro's Fire an action, and the rest an "effect"??

I don't.I concider it the first instance during the action's resolution that it(Kuro's) targets Saemon.

It's targeting him multiple times, it doesn't say "Reaction: After the first time another player's action targets"

hence can be used no matter how many times you target him.

If different actions were doing the targetting,yes.If the same action is doing the targetting,no.Rulebook,page 75:"Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per trigger"

Saemon can use his reaction at the 1st,2nd,or Nth time he is targeted by Kuro's;whenever he likes.However,once he uses it,he can no longer use it against the same casting of Kuro's.

If different actions were doing the targetting,yes.If the same action is doing the targetting,no.Rulebook,page 75:"Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can be used only once per trigger"

.

Ah, but each ranged attack is a trigger, therefore he can react to each one.

-H

no. cancel means it never took place and therefore Saemon can just react again. that's why it's never a good idea to cancel a Reaction on a card in play that doesn't have a cost, ie Tangen Sensei, Nizomi, Saemon. if it were negated, however, then he wouldn't be able to react again until something else triggers it.

Diamond Rule Book Page 75: (Paragraph 2 end:...Also, each Printed instance of a reaction can be used only once per trigger. (It's legal to use Multiple Identical Reactions if they all come from diffrent physical cards)

So if i Fall on Your Knees Saemon's ability then I KILL HIM ....nuff said ...

ninjapeps wrote:

no. cancel means it never took place and therefore Saemon can just react again. that's why it's never a good idea to cancel a Reaction on a card in play that doesn't have a cost, ie Tangen Sensei, Nizomi, Saemon. if it were negated, however, then he wouldn't be able to react again until something else triggers it.

Diamond Rule Book Page 75: (Paragraph 2 end:...Also, each Printed instance of a reaction can be used only once per trigger. (It's legal to use Multiple Identical Reactions if they all come from diffrent physical cards)

So if i Fall on Your Knees Saemon's ability then I KILL HIM ....nuff said ...

yup. That'll work. There's a way around Saemon's Shield after all ^_^

-H

If an action or Event is canceled, the entire thing is stopped. It does not successfully

resolve. The attempt to use it does not count against any maximum number

of uses per game/turn/battle/etc., although for actions, the failed attempt still

counts as its player’s one opportunity to act before play passes to the left. No costs

are refunded. A canceled Action card goes to the discard pile.

It is well known considering the number of concerned reaction, that FYOK does nothing against the such as Saemon.

@Kenshi :

I see your point, however, for the multiple redirecting it is still the same targeting step, even if it has been redirecting, that still the same thing. In the case of consecutive ranged attack, it's a new thing each time. See my point ? (I'm quite confident in it actually).

Togashi Imura

*waves hand* you do not sell death sticks

It is well known considering the number of concerned reaction, that FYOK does nothing against the such as Saemon.

But TMN showed proof that in this case, it does...

-H

OK since we got a Official answer to this then i will now comment ....Thank you Marty for replying and to Togashi Imura i bow to you i am sorry i did not FULLY understand what you were trying to get at. thats it im done ....no more to see move along .....

What happens when Saemon gets hit with an action that produces multiple ranged attacks as its effects?(e.g. Kuro's Fire,Ikoma Korin XP)

a)He gets to react to each ranged attack targetting him,gaining a follower,and is thus practically immune to such actions.

b)He only gets to react once,and is fair game for the rest of them.

I used to think it was a,as the rulebook states that "each printed instance of a reaction on an unbowed card can be used once per trigger",

and multiple targetting by multiple ranged attacks sounds like it fits the bill.

After watching the thread about Saemon & Tangen sensei,however,I'm beginning to doubt that.

In that thread,Jeff said that redirectioncan happen an infinite number of times,but it still counts only once for Saemons reaction because it is the same action,ergo the same trigger(or something to that effect).

If,for example,Saemon is targeted bu 3 Kuro's-produced consecutive ranged attacks,he is still actually being targeted by only one action-Kuro's.Based on the above,does that mean that Saemon can only react once-say,to the first ranged attack-and is vulnerable to the rest of them?

Still waiting for an official answer to this one. It's turning into a rather hot debate here.

Marty already answered this. He is a rules official. Move along.

No,actually,he hasn't.His answer was clear and concise,but it had nothing to do with my original question.This thread somehow got twisted from "whether Saemon can continuously use his reaction if targeted multiple times by a single action generating multiple ranged attack effects(like Kuro's Fire)" to "what constitutes a failed action,a canceled action or a negated effect".Marty's answer was relative to the latter.I was asking the former.Please take the time to check the entire thread,not just whether a rules official has posted anything or not.I wouldn't have posted here again if I thought Marty's answer was relative to my original question.

Kuro's fire is a single action. It creates multiple effects. Each of these effects is targeted and resolved seperately, and is negated seperately. Each time Saemon is targeted by the SEPERATE effects, he has a new trigger to react to. Each time the follower is created, the ranged attack fails. The next ranged attack targets the follower and kills it. The third targets Saemon, giving him another trigger, thus failing the ranged attack. Eventually, you run out of ranged attacks, even if the negated action doesn't count against the limit. You have to target and kill the follower once each cycle.

Note that the ruling cited doesn't refer to actions, merely triggers. Seperate effects produce seperate triggers. Simple enough. Move along.

I apologize. I thought Tolis K. was referring to the topic that this thread had branched into about Kuro's Fire. However, Marty did address all possible results of canceling or negating Kuro's Fire. Now it's just a matter of applying it to Saemon.

Shosuro Saemon

Scorpion Clan Samurai.Ninja

Reaction: After another player’s action targets Saemon: Target a Personality you control. Give him a 1F Ninja Follower token.

The concern in this thread is that you cannot react to the same trigger with the same card more than once, correct? So what trigger does Saemon react from? After another player targets him with an action. So the logical conclusion is that you can use his react each time your opponent targets him with an action. Casting Kuro's Fire is one action that can cause more than one effect. You as the caster are required to choose a new target as each effect resolves, creating a new trigger for Saemon to react to.

Then again what do I know.

I think what people want is for Marty to say if Saemons reaction cancels the entire action of Kuro's or if it just cancels a single effect of the spell, i.e. that ranged attack.

Can my 4/4 shug burn saemon, watch a follower appear in front of him then blast the follower and then him with the remains of the action?

Lets get to the point and put this thread to bed. I have Scorpions to Burn.

Kuro's fire is a single action. It creates multiple effects. Each of these effects is targeted and resolved seperately, and is negated seperately. Each time Saemon is targeted by the SEPERATE effects, he has a new trigger to react to. Each time the follower is created, the ranged attack fails. The next ranged attack targets the follower and kills it. The third targets Saemon, giving him another trigger, thus failing the ranged attack. Eventually, you run out of ranged attacks, even if the negated action doesn't count against the limit. You have to target and kill the follower once each cycle.

Note that the ruling cited doesn't refer to actions, merely triggers. Seperate effects produce seperate triggers. Simple enough. Move along.

That's not how Marty's post reads.

Nowhere in his post did Marty ever say what you said above:"Each time Saemon is targeted by the SEPERATE effects, he has a new trigger to react to."That is pure assumption on your part.

What Marty actually did is explain in detail what constitutes a negated and a failed ranged attack IN GENERAL,as far as Kuro's is concerned.That was indeed necessary,since this thread had moved from my original question to whether the ranged attacks targeting Saemon are negated or cancelled or whatever else,and to what exactly negated and cancelled mean.I agree that such clarification is needed.I also agree that his ruling(a failed-not negated- ranged attack doesn't count against the maximum number of RAs from Kuro's) IS relevant to my original question.However,it doesn't answer it;not by a longshot.

Like I said,your statement that "Each time Saemon is targeted by the SEPERATE effects, he has a new trigger to react to."is just that:your statement,your opinion.Nowhere in Marty's post is it ever mentioned,and francly I don't understand how you deduced that from what he wrote.I'm not a native speaker,but I do believe that my English is good enough(in contrast with my typing skills)so that I 'd have picked up on that.

Marty,if you can,please clarify.

The concern in this thread is that you cannot react to the same trigger with the same card more than once, correct? So what trigger does Saemon react from? After another player targets him with an action. So the logical conclusion is that you can use his react each time your opponent targets him with an action. Casting Kuro's Fire is one action that can cause more than one effect. You as the caster are required to choose a new target as each effect resolves, creating a new trigger for Saemon to react to.

The thing is,since Kuro's is obviously a single action,Saemon can react once(per its casting) to it with his printed reaction,regardless of how many times it targets him.

Not to totally throw off the discussion, but I was under the impression that the only part of the range attack that cared about followers was the targeting part.

P. 90 of the rulebook says "A ranged attack must target a single card opposing the card or cards making the ranged attack: either a Follower or a Personality with no Followers."

Example:

Tsuruchi Hiro XP is facing down Saemon in a battle. Hiro is angry and declares one of his Range 2's against Saemon.

Hiro targets Saemon, who has no followers. The targeting is done, and Saemon poops out a ninja follower in reaction. Hiro has already targeted Saemon, and is effectively locked on. Range 2 goes through, killing Saemon.

The concern in this thread is that you cannot react to the same trigger with the same card more than once, correct? So what trigger does Saemon react from? After another player targets him with an action. So the logical conclusion is that you can use his react each time your opponent targets him with an action. Casting Kuro's Fire is one action that can cause more than one effect. You as the caster are required to choose a new target as each effect resolves, creating a new trigger for Saemon to react to.

I agree with this conclusion.

Instead of looking at Saemon's reaction or Kuro's Fire's battle action look at every Ranged attack printed in Diamond. On every card you will notice that no ranged attack targets as part of the printed action. Ranged Attacks instead target as a rulebook effect. Kuro's Fire creates up to X number of Ranged Attacks where X is equal to the casting shugenja's chi. Kuro's Fire targets with each seperate Ranged Attack by rulebook effect.

Now look at Saemon's reaction "After another player's action targets Saemon:...". The key words are "action targets". Kuro's Fire has an action that targets multiple times. When you look to see if Saemon's reaction is legal ask yourself.

1 Is this "another player's action"? yes, since you can not target your own personalities with a ranged attack.

2 Has that player targeted Saemon with this action's printed effect before (excluding negated attempts)? no, since each new ranged attack is a distinct effect. It is a printed effect because Kuro's Fire says it produce's up to X ranged attacks.

To sum it up: Actions target as effects. Each time an action targets as an effect it is a new instance of that action targeting.

DE rulebook, p.75

Also, each printed instance of a Reaction can only be used once per trigger.

You're right, Marty didn't say that reactions care about triggers, not actions. The rulebook did. Either way, it's not an opinion. It's fact. Deal with it.

Further, Accumulated Rulings states that if an effect's target becomes illegal at any point between targeting and resolution, even if returned to legal status, the effect does not affect those targets. That also, is not opinion. It is fact. Deal with it.

Saemon gets targeted by a ranged attack.

Saemon poops out a follower. The ranged attack now targets an illegal target.

The ranged attack resolves. Accumulated rulings states that it has no effect.

Simple enough for you?

The sequence to play an action is to announce the action, pick targets, pay costs, then generate effects. [Summary of other rulings]

An action is considered "taken" or "used" after it is legally declared, targeted, and paid for. [Summary of other rulings]

If one or more of an action's targets become illegal between when they are chosen and when the action begins to resolve, that action will not affect those targets. This remains true even if they become illegal, then return to being legal. [JA, 15 June 2004; 22 June 2004]

Some rulings regarding actions

A Spell or Kiho is considered successfully "cast" after costs are paid, targets chosen, but before effects resolve. A Shugenja is "casting" a Spell or Kiho throughout the entire action, including effect resolution. [ML, 13 May 2004]

A ruling regarding spells

Spells allow a Shugenja to create powerful magical effects.

On page 60 of the Diamond rulebook

Spells don't follow the first simple rule of actions. Is there some really basic written rule that I've missed that says that spells are in fact actions? I know that Kihos are actions because I read it somewhere in the rulebook. There is nothing anywhere that actually states that spells are actions. I do understand that there is a designation for when the spell effect can go off (open, battle, reaction, limited) but since spells do not follow the basic rules of all actions in the Accumulated Rulings why do we all assume that they are?

Call me crazy I almost always miss the really obvious things.

Spells don't follow the first simple rule of actions. Is there some really basic written rule that I've missed that says that spells are in fact actions? I know that Kihos are actions because I read it somewhere in the rulebook. There is nothing anywhere that actually states that spells are actions. I do understand that there is a designation for when the spell effect can go off (open, battle, reaction, limited) but since spells do not follow the basic rules of all actions in the Accumulated Rulings why do we all assume that they are?

Call me crazy I almost always miss the really obvious things.

All abilities printed on cards or strongholds with one of the following keywords are considered actions:

Limited

Open

Battle

Reaction

Limited and open actions are played during the action phase. Battle actions are played in the attack phase during the battle action segment. And reactions are played when they specify.

I can't think of a card type that doesn't include a printed action on at least one card of that type, including spells.

Does that answer your question?

Um...A spell is a card type, not an action card this is true. However, we are not talking about spell cards or even action cards. We are talking about actions.

I do understand that there is a designation for when the spell effect can go off (open, battle, reaction, limited)

It is those indicators that make the spell's effect an action (see page 74 of the Rulebook). They follow all the same rules as an action card with the exception that they must be in play before they can be used (again see page 74).

Yogo Tao, Who's opinions are you talking about? Further more, who's arguing with opinions?

Saemon gets targeted by a ranged attack.

Saemon poops out a follower. The ranged attack now targets an illegal target.

The ranged attack resolves. Accumulated rulings states that it has no effect.

Simple enough for you?

Yes quite simple. However, that isn't the answer needed for the original question posed.

You are both (Daidoji_Seku and hametsuj) absolutely correct a spell is a card type and what's printed on it is an action. I knew I had led myself astray. On page 71 there is an even more clear statement that what is printed on a spell is an action.

Under fire dragon I found this "Consecutive ranged attacks are targeted and resolved one at a time"

The original poster's question was basically "If you take a single action that causes multiple conecutive targetings to occure does Shosuro Saemon get multiple reactions if targeted multiple times by the single action? In this case the action is Kuro's Fire and the trigger is "after another player's action targets Saemon".

rules guys?

Yogo Tao, Who's opinions are you talking about? Further more, who's arguing with opinions?

Isawa Kenshi up there...

"Like I said,your statement that "Each time Saemon is targeted by the SEPERATE effects, he has a new trigger to react to."is just that:your statement,your opinion.Nowhere in Marty's post is it ever mentioned,and francly I don't understand how you deduced that from what he wrote.I'm not a native speaker,but I do believe that my English is good enough(in contrast with my typing skills)so that I 'd have picked up on that. "

But, my favorite quote...

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you are an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt."

And the answer to the question is simple enough.

Saemon's trigger: "When another player's action targets Saemon..."

Judging by the ruling on a printed action may be used once per trigger, yes, saemon can react multiple times.

The rule doesn't say that you may only react to an action once, nor does saemon's effect say "the first time an action targets saemon". No, each time the trigger occurs, you may react to it. the word "action" is used only to distinguish between actions, and non-action effects. (such as events or traits)

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you are an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt."

My personal take is "It's better to say stupid things and have people think you're an idiot. That way they underestimate you and it's easy to scam them." I think that's from the Tao.

Instead of looking at Saemon's reaction or Kuro's Fire's battle action look at every Ranged attack printed in Diamond. On every card you will notice that no ranged attack targets as part of the printed action. Ranged Attacks instead target as a rulebook effect. Kuro's Fire creates up to X number of Ranged Attacks where X is equal to the casting shugenja's chi. Kuro's Fire targets with each seperate Ranged Attack by rulebook effect.

Just a word: ranged attack do not target as a rulebook effect. The rulebook merely tells you what a ranged attack is (and basically, it targets). However, ranged attack is just a short-hand on the card, you could unfold the definition, and "target" would be printed on the card.

Togashi Imura

Quote:

Spells allow a Shugenja to create powerful magical effects.

Sorry for the Off Topic but this one caught my attention. Someone should show this to the Design Guys. Looking at Diamond Ed spells I can find only about 5-6 that actually verify this statement, (Out of the Hundred or so that have been printed).

WoL was the first set to design decent cost/effect spells in ages. I sure hope this trend continues.

Quote:

The concern in this thread is that you cannot react to the same trigger with the same card more than once, correct? So what trigger does Saemon react from? After another player targets him with an action. So the logical conclusion is that you can use his react each time your opponent targets him with an action. Casting Kuro's Fire is one action that can cause more than one effect. You as the caster are required to choose a new target as each effect resolves, creating a new trigger for Saemon to react to.

I agree with this conclusion.

Instead of looking at Saemon's reaction or Kuro's Fire's battle action look at every Ranged attack printed in Diamond. On every card you will notice that no ranged attack targets as part of the printed action. Ranged Attacks instead target as a rulebook effect. Kuro's Fire creates up to X number of Ranged Attacks where X is equal to the casting shugenja's chi. Kuro's Fire targets with each seperate Ranged Attack by rulebook effect.

Now look at Saemon's reaction "After another player's action targets Saemon:...". The key words are "action targets". Kuro's Fire has an action that targets multiple times. When you look to see if Saemon's reaction is legal ask yourself.

1 Is this "another player's action"? yes, since you can not target your own personalities with a ranged attack.

2 Has that player targeted Saemon with this action's printed effect before (excluding negated attempts)? no, since each new ranged attack is a distinct effect. It is a printed effect because Kuro's Fire says it produce's up to X ranged attacks.

To sum it up: Actions target as effects. Each time an action targets as an effect it is a new instance of that action targeting.

Except that Saemon doesn't say "After another player's CARD EFFECT targets Saemon:...",as several other cards say.He says:"After another player's ACTION targets Saemon:..."

If the former was true,then your conclusion would be correct.It's not,however,therefore I believe you're wrong.

@Yogo Tao and Tsuki:

I've read what you've written,and I think I understand your point.Basically,you're saying that since Saemon becomes an illegal target for the first ranged attack(resulting in its failure)then he is not concidered to have been targeted,and therefore he can react to a subsequent RA by Kuro's targeting him in the same manner,ad infinitum:

If one or more of an action's targets become illegal between when they are chosen and when the action begins to resolve, that action will not affect those targets. This remains true even if they become illegal, then return to being legal. [JA, 15 June 2004; 22 June 2004]

That's not exactly the case,however.According to the newest ruling about Suitengu's surge,if you target a unit,then surge it(thus making it an illegal target),IT REMAINS TARGETED(not that that does any good).

Expand upon this here.Saemon,when first targeted by Kuro's ,even if he uses his ability(becoming an illegal target for kuro's)REMAINS TARGETED BY IT.He also(obviously)has already used his printed instance of a reaction against Kuro's.So,until Kuro's fully resolves,and is cast again,targetting him anew,HE CAN'T USE HIS REACTION AGAINST IT.

Like I said in a previous post,if design wanted Saemon to be able to react to multiple effects(whether they came from the same source/action or not),they would have worded his ability accordingly,using the word "effect",or even "card effect" as his trigger.They didn't.

Hello.

@Yogo Tao and Tsuki:

I've read what you've written,and I think I understand your point.Basically,you're saying that since Saemon becomes an illegal target for the first ranged attack(resulting in its failure)then he is not concidered to have been targeted,and therefore he can react to a subsequent RA by Kuro's targeting him in the same manner,ad infinitum

That's not exactly the case,however.According to the newest ruling about Suitengu's surge,if you target a unit,then surge it(thus making it an illegal target),IT REMAINS TARGETED(not that that does any good).

Yes thats not the case,and thats why thats not their point.

If the Target becomes ilegal the effects fail, so the targeting still happened

"Reaction: After another player’s action targets Saemon" =>

Saemon reacts to the targeting from and action.(not to the action)

Since an action can target more than once=> each targeting is one trigger, even it can happen with diferent timing

Effects are part of the action(they are in the card text), if this isnt this way

you couldnt play flee against kuro's fire (and saemon could react never to kuro's)

So the timing is this:

i-Player A anounces he plays kuro's fire and play the costs.

ii-player A targets saemon with one RA

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action

iii-Saemon can react, b/c there is a trigger ,so Saemon reacts.

iv-Saemon is now a ilegal target.=> the RA has no effects.

v- you kill the follower with one of the kuro's fire RA.

vi-player A targets saemon with one RA (again)

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action (and is a diferent targeting than the 1st one)

vii-Saemon has a new trigger to react(since it is a new targeting)

Saemon reacts => go to iv

Greetings.

I believe it is word as action and not effect as players don't control effects.

Here is what happens:

Kuro's Fire target's Saemon.

Saemon goes "I've been targeted by another players action, I can react to that"

Saemon produces a follower and the ranged attack fails

Kuro's Fire destroys the follower.

Kuro's Fire targets Saemon

Saemon goes "I've been targeted by another players action again, I can react to that"

Saemon produces a follower ect.

Saemon's trigger is "When another players action targets Saemon". Kuro's fire can produce multiple instances of this trigger by targeting him mulitple times, and he gets to react once to each instance.

So the timing is this:

i-Player A anounces he plays kuro's fire and play the costs.

ii-player A targets saemon with one RA

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action

iii-Saemon can react, b/c there is a trigger ,so Saemon reacts.

iv-Saemon is now a ilegal target.=> the RA has no effects.

v- you kill the follower with one of the kuro's fire RA.

vi-player A targets saemon with one RA (again)

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action (and is a diferent targeting than the 1st one)

vii-Saemon has a new trigger to react(since it is a new targeting)

Saemon reacts => go to iv

vi) is not quite correct.The targetting is not different from the first one.That's because Saemon,by his wording,doesn't care if it's effect A of action A,effect B of action A or effect X of action A that's doing the targetting.He cares that it's action A that's doing the targetting.

So the above sequence should be:

vi-player A targets saemon with one RA (again)

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action (but is not a diferent targeting than the 1st one)

vii-Saemon has a new trigger to react(but can't use his ability,since it is not a new targeting and he has already used it).

vi) is not quite correct.The targetting is not different from the first one.That's because Saemon,by his wording,doesn't care if it's effect A of action A,effect B of action A or effect X of action A that's doing the targetting.He cares that it's action A that's doing the targetting.

So the above sequence should be:

vi-player A targets saemon with one RA (again)

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action (but is not a diferent targeting than the 1st one)

vii-Saemon has a new trigger to react(but can't use his ability,since it is not a new targeting and he has already used it).

Uho ^_^. Seems that you eventually convinced yourself. However, though what you were telling to begin with was kinda understable, now you're beginning to mess things up.

First: whenever you get a new trigger you can react again with the same printed instance.

Second: Well, it's a new targeting step (I use step because every other word that come to my mind are reserved terms ) for sure. However, where you could tell that he can't react (though I'm positive he can) is that it is the same action, and it is no new instance of the trigger to target again with the same action.

Togashi Imura

[/quote]

vi) is not quite correct.The targetting is not different from the first one.That's because Saemon,by his wording,doesn't care if it's effect A of action A,effect B of action A or effect X of action A that's doing the targetting.He cares that it's action A that's doing the targetting.

So the above sequence should be:

vi-player A targets saemon with one RA (again)

*Saemon has been targeted, it comes from another player’s action (but is not a diferent targeting than the 1st one)

vii-Saemon has a new trigger to react(but can't use his ability,since it is not a new targeting and he has already used it).[/quote]

By this logic, Kuro's Fire can only have one target. The text on the card contradicts this though.

Kuro's Fire

Elemental Battle: Bow this Shugenja to make a number of consecutive ranged attacks up to the Shugenja's Chi. The ranged attacks' total strength cannot exceed the Shugenja's Force plus Chi. (Consecutive ranged attacks are targeted and resolved one at a time.)

Thanks Marty,

I just have a hard time believing that Saemon is completely immune to ranged attacks. If Scorp really do have a 7 gold guy who cant die to the most common form of battle PK then there the New Crab.

It would sort of make sense, Claws? Check. Exoskeleton? Check. Relentless will to "Get the job done by any means"? Oh, Hell Yeah!

I knew it, scorpions are just the sneaky crabs.

Thanks Marty,

I just have a hard time believing that Saemon is completely immune to ranged attacks. If Scorp really do have a 7 gold guy who cant die to the most common form of battle PK then there the New Crab.

It would sort of make sense, Claws? Check. Exoskeleton? Check. Relentless will to "Get the job done by any means"? Oh, Hell Yeah!

I knew it, scorpions are just the sneaky crabs.

I assume you're referring to Hida Shara. Otherwise, I don't see the correlation.

When it comes to ranged strike meta, Shara is simply better. Her trait cannot be nagated or cancelled, is in effect no matter what state she is in, and protects all cards in her unit. One Fall on Your Knees can ruin Saemon's day real quickly. Shara couldn't care less.

One Fall on Your Knees can ruin Saemon's day real quickly.

It cannot, only Eclipse or such can do a thing.

But the Saemon story is all about peasant tossing believe me. He's got a really keen eye, Saemon that is. And whenever he sees something happening to him (almost forsee, good feeling Mr Saemon), he just takes a random peasant (he always have a bunch of peasant with him, efficiency, always). So, as I told he takes a peasant off his bag, and just toss it the farthest he can (which is not that far because Saemon is only a ninja, and a peasant is quite heavy believe me (if you don't believe me, it means that you never tried peasant tossing), that's why it seems that the pesant is protecting him). Then it oftens mess up things, for example arrows aiming at him would just reap on the peasant... that's why. Are, are, what a clever guy, Saemon that is!

Togashi Imura

Wow, Scorpion got there very own unshootable guy, and for only 7 gold too. Thats sweet. Looks like Phoenix decks are going to need a bigger gun than Kuro's. Bishamons Fury would do the trick but 10 gold is alot, not to mention the dead shugies piled up like cord wood.

First, I never said that he is never targeted. You did. He remains targeted, that specific part of the Accumulated Rulings merely states that he is not affected.

Secon, you need to let go of the idea that saemon can only react to Kuro's Fire once. Saemon can react to Kuro's fire (ranged attack 1 - the targeting trigger) once. Nothing in the rules prevents him from also reacting to Kuro's Fire (ranged attack 3 - a targeting trigger). The question needs to be asked, are those seperate triggers? The answer is yes. It is IRRELEVANT that both triggers resulted from the same action. They are 2 seperate triggers, so Saemon can react 2 seperate times.

Martin Lund wrote:

Saemon is invincible.

Wait. No. Not really.

But shooting him with Ranged Attacks isn't the plan, even with Kuro's Fire.

Rules Junta-type Emails w/Jeff wrote:

>In short, can Shosuro Saemon use his Reaction each

>time Kuro's Fire targets him with one of its

>Consecutive Ranged Attacks, or only the first time?

>

>I'm leaning towards "every time," on this one.

>

>Reaction: After another player's action targets

>Saemon:

Me too. Each targeting is a new and chronologically separate

trigger. There is no issue of multiple uses of one printed Reaction

to one trigger.

--

Jeff Alexander

Lead Designer, L5R CCG

Alderac Entertainment Group

- Marty Lund

Deputy Rules Monkey

Understood.Thanks Marty.

hametsuj wrote:

One Fall on Your Knees can ruin Saemon's day real quickly.

It cannot, only Eclipse or such can do a thing.

My bad, your still targeting Saemon, so he gets a follower anyway.

Wow, this guy's great.

Martin Lund wrote:

Saemon is invincible.

which is my he's my favorite ninja. the only way he can be shot is if you've got something that can go through followers or if he's bowed.

Hello.

Bow Saemon first and burn down him, no more invincible for Saemon.

There are cards that had similar RA protection, actualy beter protection:

-Hida Shara (she and her followers are inmune to RA)

-Yoritomo Sen (if he has a follower, it becomes like Shara, unless you have a RA that can target Sen)

Greetings.

The Magic Ninja wrote:

he cant use the reaction again because it is the same trigger

That's pretty correct, he can't use his reaction again. However let me tell you the story :

Canceling is a power from the Lying Darkness. All it touches is rendered ninja. What happens next, is that the action vanishes into thin air, and no one actually sees it. Then Saemon: "I react!!" "Well you can't you've already done it" "No, I haven't" "Yes, you have!" "No , I haven't, please have a look" "Well, it's just th... What the hell, it was here just a minute ago! what happens" "you must have dreamt, that's it" "Impossible, I've seen it !!" "well, you're just talking nonsense, let's proceed... what was I telling, uh, yes: I REACT !!".

Togashi Imura

There is no such thing as ninja

I love you.

You could just skip this whole issue by using a ranged attack that targets the personality regardless of followers. "Ok, Saemon, you picked up your follower as a reaction, but unfortunately this arrow homed in on you anyway."

If one or more of an action's targets become illegal between when they are chosen and when the action begins to resolve, that action will not affect those targets. This remains true even if they become illegal, then return to being legal. [JA, 15 June 2004; 22 June 2004]

One note here, that I just saw. This refers to actions. By the time Saemon is even targeted with the Ranged Attack from Kuro's Fire, it means Kuro's Fire is beginning to produce ranged attacks, which means the action is beginning to resolve, rendering this text irrelevant. The effect of the ranged attack isn't covered by this, as effects and actions are different. Should this rule be considered updated to include effects as well? If not, the attack targeting Saemon would not be negated, and Saemon wouldn't be uber-hard to kill via Kuro's Fire.

Sorry, I want Saemon to be strong, lord knows Scorpion can always use a bit of help, but I want to make sure all the bases are covered here.

gotcha... a new category, like a diet-action. Kinda an action, but it leaves a funny taste in your mouth. I understand now.