L5R CCG Rules board, 28 October 2014 to 3 November 2014
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 28 October 2014
With Seppun Tasuke as my Sensei, I gain one affection token each time his card with the matching focus value is discarded (that turn). Under which of these circumstances do I gather tokens (assuming I have used the sensei and named the correct FV)?
1.) My opponent uses a ring card from hand for its action. 2.) My opponent plays a strategy card that does not put itself into play, but into the discard pile after it finishes resolving. 3.) My opponent Kharmics\Courages a fate card. 4.) I play a strategy card from my hand that my opponent owns, via Doji Takato. 5.) I discard my opponents kata via Cautious Contemplation. 6.) I name FV 0, and my opponent takes the repeatable dynasty discard action.
Alex Jones (rules official), 29 October 2014
With Seppun Tasuke as my Sensei, I gain one affection token each time his card with the matching focus value is discarded (that turn). Under which of these circumstances do I gather tokens (assuming I have used the sensei and named the correct FV)?
1.) My opponent uses a ring card from hand for its action. 2.) My opponent plays a strategy card that does not put itself into play, but into the discard pile after it finishes resolving. 3.) My opponent Kharmics\Courages a fate card. 4.) I play a strategy card from my hand that my opponent owns, via Doji Takato. 5.) I discard my opponents kata via Cautious Contemplation. 6.) I name FV 0, and my opponent takes the repeatable dynasty discard action.
Under discussion.
Alex Jones (rules official), 30 October 2014
The Comprehensive Rules, p19, Discard: "Discard," when referring to cards, has several meanings, all involving the discard pile:
By itself, referring to a Fate card: To put a card from one’s own hand into the discard pile. By itself, referring to a Dynasty card: To put a card from one's own Province into the discard pile. A card may also be discarded from other areas than one’s own hand or Provinces, going to the discard pile, but this must be stated explicitly.
By default, the phrase "discard a card” refers to discarding a Fate card from hand. The phrase "discard a [card type or keyword]" also refers to discarding from the hand, unless otherwise stated.
Thus Seppun Tasuke, whose ability says, "After ... his card ... is discarded," refers purely to cards which are discarded from hand.
So: 1.) My opponent uses a ring card from hand for its action. You do not get a token, as a Ring played from hand for its ability enters a resolution area, from which it is discarded after the action resolves (Comprehensive Rules, p21-22, "Resolution areas").
2.) My opponent plays a strategy card that does not put itself into play, but into the discard pile after it finishes resolving. You do not get a token, as a Strategy played from hand for its ability enters a resolution area, from which it is discarded after the action resolves (if it didn't enter play).
3.) My opponent Kharmics\Courages a fate card. You may get a token, as the card is discarded from his hand.
4.) I play a strategy card from my hand that my opponent owns, via Doji Takato. You may get a token when Takato's action resolves, as the discard is from your opponent's hand. You do not get a token if you subsequently play the card, as per question 2.
5.) I discard my opponents kata via Cautious Contemplation. You do not get a token, as the discard is from play, not from hand.
6.) I name FV 0, and my opponent takes the repeatable dynasty discard action. You do not get a token, as the discard is from a province, not from hand.
Alex
A player, 30 October 2014
So from this thread, Seppun Tasuke works ONLY with cards discarded (not played) from your opponents hand, because the phrase "Discard a card" refers to discarding a card from the fate hand only. This, despite the fact that that particular phrase doesn't actually appear on the card. Also it has now led to ruling that a card which says it modifies FVs of cards discarded by an action (Voice of Experience) cannot modify the FV of a card discarded by an action (Delicate Gamble, Fires of Turmoil, Sleep, etc.), in complete contradiction to any reasonable reading of the cards involved. This seems like a rather large change out of nowhere.
On another note, I would still get the Affection token if I discard my opponents card from my hand that I got with Takato, as the CR seems to point to the card still being considered to be your opponents.
A player, 30 October 2014
Per this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=110684
I have a question/clarification...
1: Do I get a token if I am able to discard the card I put in my own hand via Takato's action? 2: I do not get a token if I discard a card from my opponents fate deck (Ex. Delicate Gamble) correct?
A player, 31 October 2014
So the Text on the Rings are "misleading".
i.E.: Play after you resolve two or more Favor actions in one turn. You may discard this Ring from your hand to use its ability without cost.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=110727
Why is the Text on the Sensei Seppun Tasuke not "misleading"?
Open, w: Name a number and target another player. After each time his (non-Focused) card with that Focus Value is discarded, gain an Affection token.
Alex Jones (rules official), 31 October 2014
So the Text on the Rings are "misleading".
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=110727
Why is the Text on the Sensei Seppun Tasuke not "misleading"?
Seppun Tasuke does not care who discards the card, as long as it is your opponent's card, and it is discarded from a player's hand.
Ok, so I'm still struggling to understand how Seppun Tasuke's "discard" is referring to anything other than "discard" as detailed on page 49 of the CR: "Discard - To put a card into its discard pile." If you go back to page 19 in the CR, it says that by itself "discard" has several meanings:
1.) By itself, referring to a Fate card: To put a card from one’s own hand into the discard pile. 2.) By itself, referring to a Dynasty card: To put a card from one's own Province into the discard pile. 3.) A card may also be discarded from other areas than one’s own hand or Provinces, going to the discard pile, but this must be stated explicitly.
So nothing so far indicates that Seppun Tasuke will not trigger off of dynasty discards (for instance).
At the very bottom, we finally see: "By default, the phrase "discard a card” refers to discarding a Fate card from hand. The phrase "discard a [card type or keyword]" also refers to discarding from the hand, unless otherwise stated." This line has been the basis of all the rulings so far on Tasuke, which is where I'm struggling. The phrase "discard a card" does NOT actually appear on Seppun Tasuke (or Voice of Experience) at all. Compare their text to something like Gates of the Second City where it is very clear that the card must be from hand per this rule. I understand the intent of the cards text, however I don't understand how you can apply a rule about the definition of a very particular phrase to a card that lacks that very particular phrase.
Is there something I'm missing?
A player, 3 November 2014
I have read this thread and was hoping that the rules team could clarify a few points.
Alex quotes the comprehensive rules: "By default, the phrase "discard a card” refers to discarding a Fate card from hand. The phrase "discard a [card type or keyword]" also refers to discarding from the hand, unless otherwise stated.", and then says:
Thus Seppun Tasuke, whose ability says, "After ... his card ... is discarded," refers purely to cards which are discarded from hand.
The comprehensive rules do not say that discarded is equivalent to the phrase "discard a card", only that 'discard' can refer to cards being discarded from a range of areas: in fact, the default explanation of the phrase "discard a card" is discussed in a separate paragraph to the varied meanings of 'discard'.
So,
1) How do the comprehensive rules support the conflation of "discard a card" with other meanings of discard, given their separation in the rules?
2) As the comprehensive rules specifically define the default use of the phrase "discard a card", why wasn't this phrase used in Seppun Tasuke ability, such as:
"Name a number and target another player. After each time he discards (not focuses) a card with that Focus Value, gain an Affection token."
Was it felt that "discard a card" and "discards a card" were not similar enough in L5R's plain English?
3) If the comprehensive rules do support conflation of terms by means that are not clear to me, are they any other similar situations players should be aware of, so as to avoid generating questions in the future that could be avoided?