A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 16 August 2014
We have doubts about how exactly works the trait "This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja". text: Guidance in War
a) Unsettling Gathering transfers the spell to another shugenja. What happens with its bonuses?
b) The personality with Guidance in War attached loses the "shugenja" keyword. What happens with the spell effects when he recovers the keyword next turn?
Thanks!
Ben Higgins (rules official), 24 August 2014
We have doubts about how exactly works the trait "This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja". text: Guidance in War
a) Unsettling Gathering transfers the spell to another shugenja. What happens with its bonuses?
The bonuses are lost.
b) The personality with Guidance in War attached loses the "shugenja" keyword. What happens with the spell effects when he recovers the keyword next turn?
The bonuses will not go away, as the Spell is still attached to the targeted Personality.
A player, 8 October 2014
Hi, just stumbled upon a minor question: if I remove shugenja from personality with attached Guidance that has 4g invest (This shugenja has the ability "Battle: Ranged 3 attack") does the battle action remains as it is granted on personality or does it perish with all bonuses granted by spells to personality that is no longer able to cast it?
Victory Through Deference Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
Guidance in War This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja. Invest : This Shugenja has Cavalry. Invest : This Shugenja has Conqueror. Invest : This Shugenja has +2F. Invest : This Shugenja has the ability, "Battle: Ranged 3 Attack."
Alex Jones (rules official), 8 October 2014
Hi, just stumbled upon a minor question: if I remove shugenja from personality with attached Guidance that has 4g invest (This shugenja has the ability "Battle: Ranged 3 attack") does the battle action remains as it is granted on personality or does it perish with all bonuses granted by spells to personality that is no longer able to cast it?
Victory Through Deference Battle/Open: Remove one to three non-Ring cards in discard piles from the game. You may target a Personality and remove one of his abilities or boldface keywords (this turn). Take an additional action.
Guidance in War This Spell's Invest effects last while it remains attached to the Shugenja. Invest : This Shugenja has Cavalry. Invest : This Shugenja has Conqueror. Invest : This Shugenja has +2F. Invest : This Shugenja has the ability, "Battle: Ranged 3 Attack."
All the ongoing effects of Guidance in War's Invest traits are permanently ended if the Personality loses Shugenja.
See the Comprehensive Rules, Special Wording Rules, References (p45-46): On an attachment, "this Personality" refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit. "This" before a keyword (for example, "this Shugenja") refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit if he has that keyword. If he does not, then the reference fails.
A player, 9 October 2014
Is it possible to have a definitive answer on the subject of Guidance in War without shugenja? 2 months ago the answer was no bonuses are lost. Today the answer is every bonus is lost. Which of the two answers should be considered true the day before Worlds?
A player, 9 October 2014
I apologize for the frustration that this issue has caused. It's not something I can directly fix myself, but know that I am working to resolve the issue quickly with the right people.
I have messages out to the Rules / Design Team and I have made the Brand Manager aware of the issue. As soon as I have a response, I'll post it.
Roger Giner-Sorolla (rules official), 9 October 2014
I apologize for the frustration that this issue has caused. It's not something I can directly fix myself, but know that I am working to resolve the issue quickly with the right people.
I have messages out to the Rules / Design Team and I have made the Brand Manager aware of the issue. As soon as I have a response, I'll post it.
Because the original ruling (from Daidoji Ryushi) was reversed without discussion with the rest of the Rules Team and too close to a major event, I am reinstating the original ruling; so, the "this Shugenja" references from the Invest effects will not make the effects fail if the Personality loses Shugenja. This applies only to this particular ruling.
With further discussion this may change after Worlds (or the CR may change to be more generous to Shugenja who lose their keyword.)
My apologies for the confusion. - Roger
Roger Giner-Sorolla (rules official), 26 October 2014
OK, I know you have been waiting for this ruling, so a little background. (To cut to the chase, scroll down to the bold text.)
There were a number of faults here, for which I take responsibility as Rules Team Lead; the initial question was not answered fully(in that it had asked whether the traits were removed through to the next turn, but was answered as if it was about whether the traits were removed in that turn), it got reversed too close to a major event so had to be re-reversed, and forced a re-look at the general rules about how much the descriptive language we use like "this Shugenja" restricts effects.
It is because we have had to change the Comprehensive Rules, now out in a new version (1.8), and consider all the implications of that change, that it took so long.
Although the Comprehensive Rules at the time seemed to be clear that "this Shugenja" meant an effect did not apply if the Personality lost the Shugenja keyword, there were reasons to think twice about keeping this rule as it is. We considered these two facts:
1. If the intent of "This Shugenja" is to restrict effects only to Shugenja, then it's an oddly specific usage on Spells that appears nowhere else, even when it would be appropriate. For example, Battle Attendants would be a perfect place for it to come into use (a Follower that can only attach to Samurai, and an ability that could refer to "This Samurai") but instead we used "This Personality". It seems that the intent behind "This Shugenja" is mainly to give flavor to Spells, where it would seem odd to use the more generic "Personality."
2. The "This Shugenja" rule also seemed to contradict another part of the Comprehensive Rules right after it (References to other points in time), saying that keywords were not restrictive if they were part of a reference to a previous mention of the card. That is, if a card said "Target your Samurai. Straighten the Samurai after the battle ends" and he lost Samurai in between, he would still straighten, due to this rule.
In particular, the point number 2 about "the Samurai" being just a reference also made intuitive sense; yet it doesn't make sense that "the" and "this" should lead to such different rulings.
The new section of the Rules, version 1.8, reads as follows (p. 42):
Code: Select all On an attachment, "this Personality" refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit. "This" before a keyword (for example, "this Shugenja") refers to the Personality in the attachment's unit, even if the Personality has lost or otherwise does not have that keyword.
Example: A trait on a Spell that says "This Shugenja has +2F" still gives the bonus when he or she has lost the Shugenja keyword.
This means that the original ruling on part b) of this question stands, but only because the rules have been changed. The effects that depend on "This Shugenja" will remain even if Shugenja is lost.
Note that more generally, the rule that only a Shugenja can cast Spells still stands, so abilities on Spells cannot be used if Shugenja is lost. What is new is that now, traits on Spells that refer to "This Shugenja" persist even if the keyword is lost.
Thanks for your patience on this difficult question.
Alex Jones (rules official), 27 October 2014
Please note that the traits - not the abilities - on the following (Arc & Strict) spells will now also remain active even if the Personality loses Shugenja: Chikushudo's Infusion Drawing on All Things Fierce Blood of the Earth Fire Kami's Greed Hitomi's Devotion (was previously active while attached to a non-Shugenja while defending, can now be active while attacking) Light of the Morning Sun Poison the Cup The Earth's Armor Ward of Air
Alex