Shibata Sensei + Traditionalist

L5R CCG Rules board, 2 August 2014 to 31 August 2015

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 2 August 2014

Traditionalist You may not play other Allegiance cards. Your Favor actions may target your Personalities as well as other players'.

Political Open: Put this Strategy into play.

Political Interrupt, w: Choose a Personality. The action may not target him if it is a Favor action and there is another legal target

Shibata Sensei

Recruiting Personalities has a minimum Gold Cost of 5 for you. You may bow your target unbowed Courtier instead of discarding the Imperial Favor for Favor actions.

A question being is that can i use the text of shibata sensei to use cards like my lords favor and imperial summons to bow my opponents courtiers as apart of the effect?

Favor Political Open: Bow your Stronghold or discard the Imperial Favor to bow a target Personality.

Could i bow my opponents courtier to replace my discarding the favor as a cost? because progressive allows me to target my opponents cards with my political actions?

Thjis is quite frustrating to hear and try to understand as this probably wasn't intended to be worded or understood like that.

Jon Palmer (rules official), 25 September 2014

Traditionalist You may not play other Allegiance cards. Your Favor actions may target your Personalities as well as other players'.

Political Open: Put this Strategy into play.

Political Interrupt, w: Choose a Personality. The action may not target him if it is a Favor action and there is another legal target

Shibata Sensei

Recruiting Personalities has a minimum Gold Cost of 5 for you. You may bow your target unbowed Courtier instead of discarding the Imperial Favor for Favor actions.

A question being is that can i use the text of shibata sensei to use cards like my lords favor and imperial summons to bow my opponents courtiers as apart of the effect?

Favor Political Open: Bow your Stronghold or discard the Imperial Favor to bow a target Personality.

Could i bow my opponents courtier to replace my discarding the favor as a cost? because progressive allows me to target my opponents cards with my political actions?

Thjis is quite frustrating to hear and try to understand as this probably wasn't intended to be worded or understood like that.

This combo does work as you've described it. If you have both Shibata Sensei and Traditionalist, and use Shibata Sensei's Interrupt when playing a Favor action, you may bow another player's Courtier to cover the discard of the favor.

A player, 26 September 2014

I'm not following the reasoning here. Traditionalist prevents a Personality from being targeted if there is another legal target, but Shibata Sensei lets you replace discarding the Imperial Favor with bowing one of "your target Courtiers". How can Traditionalist force your opponent's Courtiers to bow as an effect of Shibata Sensei? If you have no other unbowed Courtiers, no Imperial Favor, and in the case of Imperial Summons, no unbowed Stronghold, doesn't the Favor action just fail from Good Faith?

Jon Palmer (rules official), 26 September 2014

I'm not following the reasoning here. Traditionalist prevents a Personality from being targeted if there is another legal target, but Shibata Sensei lets you replace discarding the Imperial Favor with bowing one of "your target Courtiers". How can Traditionalist force your opponent's Courtiers to bow as an effect of Shibata Sensei? If you have no other unbowed Courtiers, no Imperial Favor, and in the case of Imperial Summons, no unbowed Stronghold, doesn't the Favor action just fail from Good Faith?

You're looking at the wrong part of Traditionalist. The key is "Your Favor actions may target your Personalities as well as other players'".

At its most straightforward, this allows you to use the Rulebook Favor Battle action to send home your own guys. However, it also means that in a situation where you're REQUIRED to target your own Personality with a Favor action, you can instead target your opponent's Personality.

Shibata Sensei, absent Traditionalist, means that a card like Imperial Summons effectively reads "Favor Political Open: Bow your Stronghold or discard the Imperial Favor or bow your target unbowed Courtier to bow a target Personality." Traditionalist then allows you to modify "your target unbowed Courtier" to "any player's unbowed Courtier" due to its trait.

As for the Good Faith Rule, it says "Favor actions require that their player control the Imperial Favor, or have an alternate effect, substitute, or waiver (“need not”) for discarding the Favor." If your combination of effects allows you to bow another player's Courtier, that satisfies Good Faith.

Jon Palmer (rules official), 31 August 2015

Upon discussion with the Rules Team, the phrase "as well as" should be interpreted to mean "in addition to" - it allows you to target your Personalities with an effect that normally could only target your opponent's Personalities, but not the opposite. Therefore, you cannot bow your opponent's unbowed Courtier to use Shibata Sensei to pay the favor cost on Imperial Summons or any similar effect.

This is a REVERSAL.