A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 18 September 2012
I am looking at the card Profits and it creates some scenarios that I am not sure if I am reading it correctly
Profits Relevant Text:
Before you produce Gold to pay for a card with a base Gold Cost of 1 or greater: You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play.
1. Traits can only be used once per trigger, but in this case the trigger is "produce gold" not "paying a gold cost" so if I am paying for a Gold Cost with multiple holdings, can I use the trait when each holding produces gold?
Example, I use my stronghold and my Border Keeps to pay for a Stables. I use the trait twice to put two wealth tokens when the Stables enters play.
2a. Is the "You may reduce the total gold produced by 1" a cost or an effect? I have tried to search in the L5R rules and EE book but only see mention of a colon (:) not a semi-colon (;)
Example: I have two Profits in play and 1 Small Farms. I use Forge Your Soul (or anything that reduces the gold cost of a card to 0). The base cost of the card is still 1 or greater. I bow the Small Farms to produce 1 gold. I know I can use the trait on one of the Profits to put one wealth token, but if "You may reduce the total gold produced by 1" is a cost, I would not be able use the trait on the second to put a wealth token on it. If it is an effect, I can.
2b. If (2) is an effect, then I have a really stupid question and I am pretty confident you can't but it begs to ask "Can I produce 0 gold to pay for a gold cost?" and trigger the trait? I am pretty sure you can willy-nilly say "I am producing zero gold" as many times as you want and trigger the trait each time to add token infinitum. I can only see one legal way to do this and I am not even sure about it:
Example: Given 1 Profits in play. I have a small farms that has been hit with The Moon's Aspiration (Gold production is now 0). I bow small farms to pay for something that has been made free but base cost is non-zero, produce 0 gold, and then trigger trait to add a token.
A player, 12 September 2013
As near as my search-fu can tell, the questions asked in this thread have not been answered. Any way that we could get some clarification on this card? Please and thank you.
A player, 13 September 2013
I am looking at the card Profits and it creates some scenarios that I am not sure if I am reading it correctly
Profits Relevant Text:
Before you produce Gold to pay for a card with a base Gold Cost of 1 or greater: You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play.
1. Traits can only be used once per trigger, but in this case the trigger is "produce gold" not "paying a gold cost" so if I am paying for a Gold Cost with multiple holdings, can I use the trait when each holding produces gold?
The trait refers to the combined Gold production, not to every source individually producing gold. It triggers once per payment and per copy of Profits in play.
2a. Is the "You may reduce the total gold produced by 1" a cost or an effect? I have tried to search in the L5R rules and EE book but only see mention of a colon (:) not a semi-colon (;)
An effect.
2b. If (2) is an effect, then I have a really stupid question and I am pretty confident you can't but it begs to ask "Can I produce 0 gold to pay for a gold cost?" and trigger the trait? I am pretty sure you can willy-nilly say "I am producing zero gold" as many times as you want and trigger the trait each time to add token infinitum. I can only see one legal way to do this and I am not even sure about it:
If you produce 0 gold, you may not "reduce the total gold produced by 1", because that would bring the Gold production to negatives, but the rule of "stats have a minimum of zero" stops that change from happening (no, you can't "owe Gold to the game" ) So, when Profits asks "if you did", the result is no, you didn't reduce the total gold production by 1: it was zero and it is still zero. No token.
A player, 13 September 2013
In reference on viewtopic.php?f=59&t=104777
Profits Relevant Text:
Before you produce Gold to pay for a card with a base Gold Cost of 1 or greater: You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play.
Original Question:
1. Traits can only be used once per trigger, but in this case the trigger is "produce gold" not "paying a gold cost" so if I am paying for a Gold Cost with multiple holdings, can I use the trait when each holding produces gold?
Rules Team Reply:
The trait refers to the combined Gold production, not to every source individually producing gold. It triggers once per payment and per copy of Profits in play.
My interpretation of Profits is that the trigger is "before you produce gold" and the restriction is "when you are paying a gold cost for a card with a base Gold Cost of 1 or greater" allowing for each individual gold producer to trigger the trait. But by the ruling suggest that otherwise.
I think my interpretation is correct (which I'll attempt to woo the Rules Team to reverse later), but for now can I get clarification on the exact timing of the Profit's trait, mechanics, and its effects.
Here an Example Scenario:
I am a Spider Player and have Daigotsu Shiraume (Spider Clan, Base Gold Cost = 6) siting in my province during my Dynasty Phase. I have an unbowed Remote Village (Produces 3) Large Farm (Produces 2), and Profits in play. Here is what I propose is the sequence of events. Am I correct?
Without Profits in Play: 1. Announce that I am brining Daigotsu Shiraume into play (Cost = 6) 2. Daigotsu Shiraume enters the "entering-play" area (Step A in CR Wiki, Cost = 6) 3. Honor Requirement or other restrictions for entering play are checked. (Step B) 4. Choose to apply Clan Discount (Cost = 4) (Step B) 5. Create a "paying a gold cost" window (Step C) 6. Enter the "when paying a gold cost" window 7. Announce I am triggering Remote Village's gold producing trait 8. Pay cost of Remote Village's trait by bowing card 9. Enter "before you produce gold" window 10. Close "before you produce gold" window 11. Produce 3 gold 12. Announce I am triggering Large Farm's gold producing trait 13. Pay cost of Large Farm's trait by bowing card 14. Enter "before you produce gold" window 15. Close "before you produce gold" window 16. Produce 2 gold 17. Choose to close the "when paying a gold cost" window. Technically I CANNOT produce any more gold to pay for the cost after this point. 18. Total Gold Produced (T) is calculated T = 3 + 2 19. Total Gold Produced is compared to the Cost (C). If T >= C then the cost is considered paid. 5 >= 4 so the cost is paid. 20. The "paying gold cost" window is closed. 21. The cost is paid so Shiraume enters play. 22. The "entering-play" area ceases to exist
With Profits in Play (Current Ruling Applied): 1. Announce that I am brining Daigotsu Shiraume into play (Cost = 6) 2. Daigotsu Shiraume enters the "entering-play" area (Step A in CR Wiki, Cost = 6) 3. Honor Requirement or other restrictions for entering play are checked. (Step B) 4. Choose to apply Clan Discount (Cost = 4) (Step B) 5. Create a "paying a gold cost" window (Step C) 6. Enter the "when paying a gold cost" window 7. Announce I am triggering Remote Village's gold producing trait 8. Pay cost of Remote Village's trait by bowing card 9. Enter "before you produce gold" window
Profit's Trait triggers here. This is NOT optional but IS restricted by the clause "pay for a card with a base Gold Cost of 1 or greater". This creates the effect "You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play" which is activated later.
10. Close "before you produce gold" window 11. Produce 3 gold 12. Announce I am triggering Large Farm's gold producing trait 13. Pay cost of Large Farm's trait by bowing card 14. Enter "before you produce gold" window
I think the Profit's Trait can trigger again here, but I'll leave that for later.
15. Close "before you produce gold" window 16. Produce 2 gold 17. Choose to close the "when paying a gold cost" window. Technically I CANNOT produce any more gold to pay for the cost after this point. 18. Total Gold Produced (T) is calculated T = 3 + 2
At this point, the choice portion of the effect "You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1" on the Profit's trait is activated giving the option to reduce T by 1 or not. This is where the timing and mechanics get a bit cloudy. The remaining portion of "if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play" is also an effect with a check (was T reduced), another check (did Shiraume enter play), and effect (put a Wealth token on Profits).
19. Total Gold Produced is compared to the Cost (C). If T >= C then the cost is considered paid. 4 >= 4 so the cost is paid. 20. The "paying gold cost" window is closed. 21. The cost is paid so Shiraume enters play.
At this point, the checks are made on the delayed effect "if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play" is activate. If both occurred, then a Wealth token is added to Profits.
22. The "entering-play" area ceases to exist.
Points of Confusion
1. Is the effects of Profit's trait considered as delayed, instantaneous, or ongoing?
2. What is the duration of the effect ("You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play") created by the triggering of Profit's trait? Is it until the end of turn, when the total gold cost is calculated (Step 18 in this case), or after Shiraume enters play?
2. What is the duration of the effect ("if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play")?
3. Can I choose to reduce the total Gold Cost produced by 1 and cause myself to no longer be able to pay for the card, returning it to where it came? I would think so since the windows "before paying a gold cost" and "when paying a gold cost" are closed leaving only "pay the gold cost" and the "after paying a gold cost" window.
4. I am trying to purchase a card and trigger the Profit's trait after the first successful gold production. Assume some interference occurs with my ability to produce enough gold to buy the card (I can think of several ways with Bad Kharma), or I simply choose to stop producing gold (Which I think I can do since rules say “Gold MAY be produced from any number of sources”). Can I still "reduce the total Gold Produced by 1" applying the effect "put a Wealth token on this card" at some point later that turn when the card might enter play. This depends on if the effect is considered delayed or not.
Alex Jones (rules official), 14 September 2013
1. Is the effects of Profit's trait considered as delayed, instantaneous, or ongoing?
The gold production reduction effect is ongoing, the creation of the Wealth token is a delayed instantaneous effect.
2. What is the duration of the effect ("You may reduce the total Gold produced by 1; if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play") created by the triggering of Profit's trait? Is it until the end of turn, when the total gold cost is calculated (Step 18 in this case), or after Shiraume enters play?
Does it matter? After the gold is spent, it's gone.
2. What is the duration of the effect ("if you did, put a Wealth token on this card after the other card enters play")?
Instantaneous.
3. Can I choose to reduce the total Gold Cost produced by 1 and cause myself to no longer be able to pay for the card, returning it to where it came? I would think so since the windows "before paying a gold cost" and "when paying a gold cost" are closed leaving only "pay the gold cost" and the "after paying a gold cost" window.
Yes. Note that a card entering play via its own text will return to its resolution area from its entering play area, and will be discarded after the ability or trait resolves.
4. I am trying to purchase a card and trigger the Profit's trait after the first successful gold production. Assume some interference occurs with my ability to produce enough gold to buy the card (I can think of several ways with Bad Kharma), or I simply choose to stop producing gold (Which I think I can do since rules say “Gold MAY be produced from any number of sources”). Can I still "reduce the total Gold Produced by 1" applying the effect "put a Wealth token on this card" at some point later that turn when the card might enter play. This depends on if the effect is considered delayed or not.
The token creation effect is delayed until the card enters play, but only refers to entering play in the instance for which Profits triggered. Note that if you produce 0 gold, you cannot reduce the total produced by 1, since the total cannot be negative, so the delayed effect will not trigger.