A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 3 June 2013
Player A is playing Kitsune with at least one spirit out and one active Invocation in play.
Player B is playing some clan that can run courtiers and rhetoric.
Player A proclaims, which is promptly rhetoric'ed away.
Now my question is, does the Invocation kick in and player b gains one less honor because of it? Or is the full honor gain just redirected and not technically gained?
Rhetoric: Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor from an action's effects, bow your performing Courtier: Choose another player. If the Courtier's Chi is higher than or equal to the Honor gain or loss, the chosen player instead of the original player takes the gain or loss.
Invocation: Limited: Until your next turn begins, before each time a player gains Honor, reduce the gain by 1 unless he controls a Spirit.
Thanks muchly
Jon Palmer (rules official), 3 June 2013
Player A is playing Kitsune with at least one spirit out and one active Invocation in play.
Player B is playing some clan that can run courtiers and rhetoric.
Player A proclaims, which is promptly rhetoric'ed away.
Now my question is, does the Invocation kick in and player b gains one less honor because of it? Or is the full honor gain just redirected and not technically gained?
Rhetoric: Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor from an action's effects, bow your performing Courtier: Choose another player. If the Courtier's Chi is higher than or equal to the Honor gain or loss, the chosen player instead of the original player takes the gain or loss.
Invocation: Limited: Until your next turn begins, before each time a player gains Honor, reduce the gain by 1 unless he controls a Spirit.
Thanks muchly
There is a new window for Invocation to trigger each time the player who is about to gain the honor changes. Therefore, in the situation above the gain will be reduced by 1 (and similar to the Hotei's Contentment situation, if it bounces back and forth, it will continue to be reduced).
A player, 3 June 2013
Given the situation in this thread, I don't understand why the Rhetoric gain would not be reduced by Invocation. I thought Rhetoric created a new timing window of "before an honor gain/loss" for the player stealing the gain. This is why you can Rhetoric a Rhetoric. Also, this here directly references the creating of a new timing window for the redirected gain/loss in the instance of Hotei's Contentment increasing the gain. If Hotei's is able to increase the gain off of a redirected proclaim, shouldn't Invocation be able to reduce a redirected gain? Or is there something different between these situations that I'm overlooking.
Thanks
Jon Palmer (rules official), 4 June 2013
Given the situation in this thread, I don't understand why the Rhetoric gain would not be reduced by Invocation. I thought Rhetoric created a new timing window of "before an honor gain/loss" for the player stealing the gain. This is why you can Rhetoric a Rhetoric. Also, this here directly references the creating of a new timing window for the redirected gain/loss in the instance of Hotei's Contentment increasing the gain. If Hotei's is able to increase the gain off of a redirected proclaim, shouldn't Invocation be able to reduce a redirected gain? Or is there something different between these situations that I'm overlooking.
Thanks
Because I misread the trigger on Invocation when answering. Read The... Card - it applies to the Rules Team too. Original answer corrected.