A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 4 January 2013
Hi,
I'm aware that the matter I'm asking about has been addressed here, still I have some doubt:
Mara's Touch Pearl While this Shugenja is Nonhuman, he has +2F. Open: Give this Shugenja -2F: He changes shape. Give him Cavalry. Battle: Give this Shugenja -2F: Ranged 6 Attack.
Let's say that the shugenja with this spell attached has his Force reduced to 1 or 0. Can he pay the costs of Mara's Touch Battle and Open actions? The answer in the linked thread was about the Force stat having its minimum (presumably at 0), so the conclusion was the cost cannot be paid. Yet, it is possible to take down Force below 0, it counts as a change of the game state, and the game "remebers" it (any future bonuses will be applied to the Force below zero, had penalties taken it that low).
Costs and changes (...) If a cost involves a change to a stat, the explicit value of the stat must change by the full stated amount, or the cost can not be paid. Minimum or maximum values can interfere with the payment of such costs.
Calculating stats (...) C: If the total is below 0, treat it as 0, unless the stat is Family Honor, Honor Requirement, or a modifier with a + or – sign such as an Item’s Force and Chi stats.
.
In other words, my question is: does the phrase "treat is as 0" mean that a virtual minimum is set for the stat (in case of which it cannot go any lower and the cost cannot be paid), or (according to the bonuses and penalties mechanics) does it make possible for the stat to, in fact, sink below 0 (since it is only treated as 0) and therefore for the cost to be paid?
Thanks
Jon Palmer (rules official), 8 January 2013
Hi,
I'm aware that the matter I'm asking about has been addressed here, still I have some doubt:
Mara's Touch Pearl While this Shugenja is Nonhuman, he has +2F. Open: Give this Shugenja -2F: He changes shape. Give him Cavalry. Battle: Give this Shugenja -2F: Ranged 6 Attack.
Let's say that the shugenja with this spell attached has his Force reduced to 1 or 0. Can he pay the costs of Mara's Touch Battle and Open actions? The answer in the linked thread was about the Force stat having its minimum (presumably at 0), so the conclusion was the cost cannot be paid. Yet, it is possible to take down Force below 0, it counts as a change of the game state, and the game "remebers" it (any future bonuses will be applied to the Force below zero, had penalties taken it that low).
.
In other words, my question is: does the phrase "treat is as 0" mean that a virtual minimum is set for the stat (in case of which it cannot go any lower and the cost cannot be paid), or (according to the bonuses and penalties mechanics) does it make possible for the stat to, in fact, sink below 0 (since it is only treated as 0) and therefore for the cost to be paid?
Thanks
No, in this case it is not possible for the cost to be paid.
While the full penalty would be applied if a later boost raised the Force, due to the process for calculation of stats, the game doesn't know that at the time you attempt to pay the cost. You have to have 2F to pay the costs of Mara's Touch.