Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
[Jade] for Iajutsu Challenge if the challenger refuses the duel, but then is forced into it by Kitsuki Yasu, does that mean they are forced duel AND lose 7 honor and are dishonored?
No.
No. Yasu reacts before the choice is made and forces acceptance. The refusal never happens (and Yasu's player has to use Yasu before you know if the other player was even going to refuse or not).
No loss of honour, because... yeah, that.
The latter part is interesting. Back when I played in DJH, Yasu was typically used _after_ the refusal. Makes sense, though.
Ok thanks!
[20F] question on a specific personality: Kuni Yukiko has a Sincerity ability listed with some specific wording:
"After Yukiko enters play, if she has a Sincerity token, draw a card (once), and if she has two, a target player discards a card."
Is it supposed to be "If she has two or more" or is the second part of the ability disabled if she goes beyond two tokens?
{ShE} Super out there question. Is the created card from emperors legions ever go to my discard pile: Scenario:, if the created personality dies in a raid battle (since I am playing Mantis and using Gusai Kazuko) does the created personality from emperors legions go to my discard pile, and then can be used to satisfy "Be prepared to dig two graves" for banishing a dead personality? Everything I am reading says that tokens never go to discard pile, but nothing about created personalities :/
Tokens in L5R are things that attach to cards, or what other games refer to as Counters. Created cards are more like what other games refer to as Tokens.
Created cards are banished as soon as they leave play. They never enter your discard pile
Yes, she probably should have said "or more", but (and I'm a bit hesitant to say this in case it sets a bad precedent and breaks something else; let me know, won't you?):
If she has 3 or more, she also has 2 (she just has some more in addition), so she still works. š
Comprehensive Rules page 69, last paragraph of the section, "When a created card leaves play, it ceases to exist."
[OBH]: The rules for Undead are from 20F, yeah? At some point in the past, in my memory, all Undead cards were Shadowlands and Immune to Fear. This is no longer the case after 20F? Undead is just a keyword with no additional rules attached to it?
Are Necromancer, Skeletal, Skeleton, and Zombie cards automatically Undead?
It was just Fear immunity, and yes, that was removed at some point well before 20F and is not present in OBH.
I believe those old implicit equivalencies should be present in the Oracle, for cards contemporaneous with that Rule. Any such cards printed post the removal of that Rule will not have that implicit equivalence.
I broadly assumed that would be the case (like Courtier / Diplomat; Sailor / Naval). I know one of the cardinal rules of OBH is "check the Oracle" but just thought it might be worth asking if that keyword rule carried over.
Was this change during ivory/20f?
No. It's true at least since Samurai.
How does card interact with created cards when they are removed from the game?
Cards text overrides rules
I thought it's a cardinal rule
Oh ok, thanks
it's from Samurai CR:
@kempy_nezumi is generally correct about card text overriding Rules, but you can't return something that no longer exists from outside the game. BotP's text would have to specifically and explicitly preserve their existence to override the Rule that they do not exist.
Ah, you are right you cant Preserve a created guys.
So created personally goes away but created tokens and attachments dont?
Tokens definitely do, but I'd have to compare the text regarding tokens and the limitations on their existence to the text regarding created cards to see if the "stay attached" text of BotP is sufficiently blanket to preserve them both.
Boy howdy did i love this card
[OBH] I don't know why I keep getting tripped by cards like this. Can a straightened Berserker perform this? Or must the performer be bowed?
Straighten a berserker its a cost, you must paid it to obtain the effect
Things between ":" are costs
This card was printed during Samurai era. From SE CR:
"Mandatory costs Actions, cards entering play, and triggered traits can have mandatory costs. The mandatory cost of an action is found in the constraints block (see Card Features, Abilities)."
"Costs and changes If a cost involves a change to card state, the change must actually, fully occur at the time of payment for the cost to be paid."
But Kuon's Legacy can be performed by a Personality who is unbowed, because it's after the ":" [OBH still]
About Enraged
OBH follows 20F then EE CR. As in 20F there's nothing about contraints block, we move to EE - and it's nearly saem as in SE when this card was printed.
Yes, becasue "straighten him" is an effect, not a cost.
Costs of this cards are: - 0 GOLD - chosing performing (bowed or unbowed) Personality with 7 or more base (printed) Force.
Everything after second colon are effects.
PS. "His eyes go dead" is a flavour, non mechanical, part. In the future they started printing such stuff in italic.
"Constraints block: An ability may contain a second colon at some point after the designatorās colon, creating a constraints block before the effects block. If it does not have this second colon, there is only an effects block."
So, I had a deep look. Tokens' existence is dependent not upon whether they themselves are in play, but whether the card they are on is in play. So, the text of BotP preserves the existence of tokens by saying that they remain on the Personality, but that does not extend to created attachments. Their existence is dependent upon staying in play at all, not staying attached, therefore preserving attachment does not explicitly preserve their existence. Moreover, it should be noted that BotP does not preserve any tokens that may be on attachments in the unit, only those on the Personality. So, for example, if there was a "pumped up" Translated Story of Shaharazad on the Personality, it would lose all its tokens.
[OBH] I'm sure I know the answer to this but I'm going to ask it anyway, in the vain hope that I am wrong. Chikara XP says "may overlay the Personality created by Oishi. Chikara XP2 does not have that text, so must enter play through paying gold cost or overlaying XP, right? It cannot overlay the personality created by Oishi?
Correct
I find this rules wise to be perfectly fine but chrome wise annoys me. Thanks for clarifying!
Well, by Emperor, AEG was petty out of the "supporting Legacy" business. Also, I believe the "pay the cost difference when overlaying more than 1 xp level apart" rule had also been dropped by that point. So, adding such a trait wasn't something to reasonably fight for.
My biggest Emperor "win" for Legacy was getting Design Team to sacrifice the text box real estate to add "Personalities" to the trait on those Emperor-era "Sensei"-keyworded Personalities that discarded all your other "Sensei Personalities", so that they didn't technically ditch your pregame Sensei card:
Oh, yeah, totally I get it, and that is a big win. For a game that is so rich in story, minor things like the Chikara stuff just tweak me. But I completely get the pick your battles.
[Jade] If a personality with 2 chi has a blood sword with one token attached to it, that personality now has a chi of 5 and can thus not be targeted by Kitsu Osen exp? Or are they still a legal target since the blood sword itself gets the token?
First one; they are not a legal target. The entirety of the Bloodsword's Chi bonuses go directly to the Personality as long as it is attached. That is to say, the token increases the Bloodsword's printed bonus, which all goes to the Personality.
Perfect! Thanks!
https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=2162
[OBH] the trait only works during dinasty when you are recruiting or is a continous effect? I think is a continous effect and chang the gold cost for cards like imperial census.
I don't understand the question? Which trait?
Costs 2 less gold if you control...
As is updated in Oracle is only checked when you recruit the personality, but not when another card check the cost, like Imperial Census, Hired Killer or similar.
Ahh. Okay, yeah, I thought you meant keyword instead of trait. Hmm. Good question, by the updated wording, it wouldn't get hit by Imperial Census and so on.
This is from lotus when the cards was printed (mrp)
And the Soul in [SHE] its printed as when the card was released in Lotus.
@saaam Over the course of the Oracle's lifecycle, its goals have shifted a bit. Initially, the notion was to "modernize" all the wordings, and have them read as they would be printed under the "current" Ruleset. After the game ended, that goal shifted somewhat, and I have tried a bit more to reword things leaning more to preserve all original functionality, especially with the rise of arc-specific simulation play.
However, the latter being said, there should still be some overarching consistency, the most prominent examples of this in the Oracle being the expulsion of the niche "Creature" subtype of Nonhuman, and the expulsion of the printed Unaligned keyword in favor of its definitional use. Takeji is a lesser example, but was meant to also be consistent. If memory serves, there's even a contemporary Ruling that cost reduction from an action effect ends when the card is paid for, which is contradictory to ongoing effect Rules (end of turn default), ascwell as somewhat at odds with the ruling Efirm cited above.
Lastly, the ShE printing was an overlooked error; in rewording the Reaction as a Response, the direct printed translation of the trait missed conversion.
Hi, The rule you mentioned is from the accumulated for 20F But in my opinion "costs +- X gold" is different that "enters play +- gold cost" The first one is a continuous effect and the second is an effect when the card enters play. The first trait affects cards like Hired killer, Imperial Census, etc And we have in Oracle Kiroto or Mieko with the same trait.
I do believe it was older than that 20F ruling, specifically for action effects as I said. But, yeah, consistency is also tough when there's thousands of cards and I'm just one lil guy. š I'll definitely try to research and revisit this for contemporary Oracle stuff, but ShE Yasuko is an oversight/aberration to be corrected.
I know you are a one man army. As we will have an OBH tournament next month people are asking some question and only want to have this clear. As I see cards with "have a +-X gold cost" as trait must keep it with the new wording. The crane now have all the good things and none of the bad.
I'll do my best to look into it before next month. š
Dont worry. I will use the current text and tell them that perhaps some changes will occurr in near future
The card has just received an errata for ShE
I am not following SHE... ^^U
I saw the card in Oracle, but I am not following the changes in SHE format
I know, but there's also an incoming ShE tournament (signs up are already open) So, it's important for the players who are going to participate to know about this update
XD
With this conversation I just have a flash from some years ago, with players carring the changes printed and checking it when they were playing in tournaments
ShE Shatterd Stormfront Mantis Stronghold and gold pooling. If I spend 4 gold and only use 2 of it before the raid and have "2 floating" can I use the "2 floating" during the raid?
[Lotus] TufTuf Sake House. Dishonoring and Shadowlands is after o before you bring the personality in play. I dont remember how this card was played in Lotus, but some friend is telling me that was used to give shadowlands and use holdings for shadowlands cards with this.
Gold drains from the pool at the end of the phase in which it is pooled. Creating an Attack Phase in the middle of the Action Phase does not end the latter, therefore Gold pooled in the Action Phase would still be available through the Raid until the Action Phase ends. Note however that any Gold created and pooled during the Raid would drain at the end of the Raid Attack Phase.
I am fairly certain the Oracle text is correct to contemporary Rulings/errata, but I am having difficulty finding a secondary source. @kempy_nezumi , might you have a source in the form of an old Rules Forum post or perhaps an errata on a post ToE Lotus Rulesheet?
also gains shadowlands and become fishonored "in the process of paying a cost"?
rots, ttt and kd sheets are as pinned posts in (link)
no tuftuf there
Well, looks like I was mistaken about Tuftuf based on Marty's ruling. :/
One last dive, if you could be so bothered? Is perhaps there a confirmatory or contradictory ruling regarding Corrupt Jade Vein? Just trying to figure out where I got the wrong idea about Tuftuf.
2006 FAQ
Huh. Nope, that confirms the same interaction. Whelp, got a few fixes on my plate to make before the next OBH.
there are two OBH events in may - one IRL in Madrid, and another here in SnM š
https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=7891
[Obh] Temple of Tsukune + Khol Wall. If A ToT is revealed at the start if my turn and resct to reveal another ToT. The second enters play? O you need wait to the next start of your turn?
The second also enters. The Reaction still occurs during the timeframe that Regions can enter.
Is this legal?
1st temple react to reveal 2nd temple
2nd temple react to reveal celestial or event with trait that brings itself into play
Khol Wall trait to flip
Yep, seems fine to me.
Ok. Thanks
[Imperial] Hey, just looking at these cards, wanted to verify. I note that the Obsidian version explicitly allows you to use it without presence. The Jade version explicitly denies this.
Wondering if this was a misprint (that just kept happening), or just a Jade MRP?
It was added in Jade more like "friendly reminder text" like on MtG cards.
"reminder text"? But, they're explicitly contradicting each other
Oh, hang on. Totally misread the last line on the first one.
Okay. Issue is that it was MRPed as a reprint in an expansion set, and not in a core set. Per Accumulated Rulings PDF archived in 2006:
Traversable Terrain ā¢ Reads, "Traversable Terrain 0G 1FV You can only play this card if you have one or more units in this battle. Battle Terrain: Move one of your units into this battle from the Province it is attacking or defending." [MRP, Soul of the Empire]
alright, so that's the MRP.
So, if I'm playing in Imperial Arc, it would work as it does in the original text?
Yeah. Just like Shinsei's Shrine is not Singular, and a bunch of other fixes.
The good news is that it's not as bad as Accessible Terrain, but still bad, back then.
It's basically a 1FV clone of movement ability of Superior Tactics, without the Chi requirement.
Accessible Terrain allows you to move everyone it.
but also allows your opponent to do the same.
Yeah. Which didn't matter much when playing Lion and getting T1 peeps out.
Also, terrains resolve at the end of the battle, right?
so, you don't move in until the battle's about to resolve
For Traversable Terrain, yeah. So it can be a really good Province sniper. At least your opponent can SupTax a unit in, if they have one.
[OBH] Question. Can Hantei the 39th pay the destroy cost of To Do What We Must? 39th 's trait says "Before Hantei is destroyed" so no destruction takes place? Or does the destruction still take place but 39th's trait substitutes bowing and moving?
Format tag please.
He cannot. There is no destruction. Substitution replaces the original effect before/without it happening.
[Jade] with the old rules and samurai being able to do seppuku as a reaction to honor loss, how would this one play out? Personality with PH of 3 is targeted to be dishonored by secrets on the wind. Next shame is played in said personality. If you do seppuku in response, player loses 1 honor and personality goes to honorable dead? Or is it 1 from the shame, a further three from personal honor of 3?
Pretty sure itās the first one, but would love confirmation, thanks!
Seppuku is always rehonor, then destroy, so no PH-based loss.
Ok thanks!
[jade] I just googled house of Tao. I saw a different version than the one I played growing up! 6/4//4 instead of 5/3/4?? When did they change the card? I mightāve had a better chance against some of the worse matchups! But yeah back to the rules question, is it the officially 6/4/4?
Or is the distinction āare you playing monk or dragon?ā
There are two separate cards: "House of Tao" and "The House of Tao". One is the old Brotherhood box, the other is a later Dragon box. They are not considered the same card.
Ah okay thanks! So does it come down to dragon deck or monk deck?
Err brotherhood I guess
I mean, it comes down to a number of factors: Are you playing Jade or Diamond? Which physical card do you have? In an Open/Legacy Format, you can play either, but one is Dragon and one is Brotherhood (with different stats as you noted), which affects which Clan you are, discounts/Clan tax/etc. They're not interchangeable in any way.
Ok thanks for clearing that up š
lol they couldnāt name it something else, huh?
Honestly, I think they were trying to MRP it, but forgetting the "The" gave us preservationists a perfect excuse to not erase one of the Brotherhood's few Strongholds.
Note that this "they're separate cards" Rule/Ruling does not apply to the Holding "(The) Master Painter". š
Some cards have different names but are the same card (Yogo Junzo's Army/The Shadowlands Horde), some cards have the same name but are different cards (Hida Yakamo/Hida Yakamo, the Oni), so, the game has a lot of weirdness in that regard.
I wish they had more of the (smaller) strongholds switch factions as the wars between the clans ebbed back and forth.
I'd say there's some potential there for the ShE people, but they only have one SH per faction so I it probably won't happen.
I do think that starting with one stronghold, and introducing a second one later on, would be pretty cool... the hard part is balance. Merely by adding an option to a clan, you're powering up that clan. If it's planned for, then all you're doing is underpowering that clan before the introduction of that stronghold. If it's too specific, then you wind up spending a bunch of personality slots on them that you can't really make work otherwise.
An option that might work better is to have a new Sensei that gives you access to that other clan. Then you can build the cost into the sensei, and it's not so much of a design a burden.
So, if there were a new stronghold for each faction, and they were all introduced at the same time, I think that would be fine. I think the best time to do that would be in the last set of an arc. Those could then be the strongholds that will continue into the next arc.
of course, even if you introduce it at the end of the arc, if you weren't super careful to future-proof the Sensei, you might design yourself into a corner, because if each clan has 5 to 7 sensei available to them, and then you just give them a new stronghold, you've just doubled the number of options available. That's A LOT of playtesting burden, or potential for balance issues.
The thing is, despite that... I still think it's really cool when it can happen.
[CE] Hello guys. Question under celestial rules with dark naga and Muscle and steel
If Dark naga targets a personality can the oponent negate the destruction?
I beleive it cant because its an ongoing effect
I am definitely not the right person to answer that question
@Brook Cunningham
Yup it can.
You mean "delayed" not "ongoing", but Krynillix is correct. Opponent can negate the destruction with M&S. The negation will wait around until the end of the turn to do its thing.
Although, note that M&S only negates movement, bowing, OR destruction from the action, not all of them. The person playing it has to pick one, and if they're picking the destruction, hopefully the targeted guy survived being bowed by the Dark Naga during combat. :/
That's what Second Muscle & Steel is for.
https://tenor.com/view/peregrin-took-second-breakfast-lotr-hobbit-billy-boyd-gif-9806199
I mean, smoke em if you got em. And by "em", I mean 7+ cost attachments. š
decks running Muscle and Steel probably can.
You know no fear so just muscle and steel!
[jade] can you lobby for the imperial favor during your turn if itās currently controlled by another player? Or does it have to be unowned to lobby?
Yes, you can Lobby even if it's controlled. If you have the highest FH, you automatically take it. If you don't, there's a complicated system where you still might be able to get it, but most people found it not worth it to use that system and it was removed shortly after Jade.
Ok thanks!
It would demand you have a bunch of spare personalities lying around with nothing better to do than get you that favor.
Which is like, a good thing to have, but if you've got all those spare personalities around, you probably have higher family honor.
In a nutshell, yep.
Yea after I re read my emerald instruction manual, I remember coming across that part with the gifts and the bowing of people. But itās just never come up during my play testing
[Imperial]
Is the Oracle text of this card the same as to how it works in Imperial? @Brook Cunningham
Like how we understand it is that the Samurai can negate a Secrets on The Wind targetting him, but at the same time, the Samurai can't refuse (and lose 7) to an Iaijutsu Challenge. Cos he's living by the Code (of Bushido)
The Oracle text is the Ivory/20F MRP. In contemporary Imperial, it works much differently.
Imperial-era CoB could not negate Secrets on the Wind, because the Samurai wasn't taking the action or making a choice within it, but it could indeed force an acceptance of an Iaijutsu Challenge.
Oh got it. What about Frenzy?
Well, that's unfortunately difficult to say. Modern standards of what constitutes a Personality "taking" or "performing" an action weren't firmly established until Diamond, and I can't find any old Rulings from the Imperial era under either of those cards. I would say that it seems like Frenzy would/should be able to be affected by Code, but I'm really only basing that on more modern (again, closer to Diamond era) understandings of mechanics.
Thanks for the clarification
In relation to āperformingā
Goshiu still can use his ability when he has the Journal attached, right? For CW/Jade
He just canāt be targetted by actions unless Ninja actions
Yes. The Journal is much clearer than Code of Bushido, in that it only restricts targeting in the Jade era (ignoring Open/Legacy complications that "choosing a performer" was more or less synonymous with targeting from Diamond to mid-Celestial, then divorced from it in late Celestial and all of Emperor š ).
[jade] Are retainers a type of holding? Meaning, can the card Blackmail target oracle of fire? Or only things like jade works and such?
Holdings are a card type that may or may not have the "Retainer" keyword. Having it does not make them not still be Holdings, just like Personalities are a card type that may or may not have the "Samurai" (or any number of other) keyword(s).
Ok gotcha thanks!
[ShE] If I pay the 2 additional gold to recruit him as a Unicorn player... his GC is 4 or 6?
Paying the extra to Recruit Out of Clan does not affect the GC stat, it's just a one time extra payment upon Recruiting.
Thanks
[Jade] if you get a turn 1 golden sun plain, you canāt use its bonus with your stronghold on your first turn, right? Since itās not a holding?
Correct. Strongholds are not Holdings.
Ok thanks!
[Jade] if you have an unaligned personality in play, and then play oath of fealty, you can attach clan specific weapons and armor to said personality, right? (Assuming of course other rules are met, like being a samurai for your house armor)
correct
Thanks!
[Imperial]
Can I choose a bowed Personality for Sacrificial Altar?
I would argue that yes you can, because it doesn't target back then. Just like Occult Murders doesn't "target" as an action.
Fun Triviaā¢: Also why Kolat Duplicate was so big back then, as you could "target" without targetting in the rules sense, and hit untargettable units.
from SCC rulebook
"or when you are required to choose among cards [...] then you are targeting"
That only refers to actions, not traits.
Thanks everyone!
[Imperial] Follow up question
Can I use Feign Death on a Pekkle that I sacrificed on the altar? Then do I gain 3 again when it comes back?
I think it's allowed, but just wanted to make sure
So... you'd lose the 10, be able to Feign Death and lose 2 more, and then Pekkle would re-honour herself and negate the gaining of 3 honour for entering play.
lol
when you really want to make sure you're allowed to use dark lord's favor
Yeah and Goshiu fodder mainly
true
Enh. Way overkill, and you get 0G produced from it, and waste a Dynasty Holding slot.
In bigger environments, something like Show of Good Faith + Sacrificial Altar is brutal.
its funny but far from op yeah
Now, Oni no Pekkle + His Most Favored + Gift of Fealty is more fun.
Really, Pekkle + Gift of Fealty + PKill is much easier.
Yeah that's how I won most of my games with this Pekkle brew
13 total honor loss if you make it dishonored first
Pekkle + Altar is for when I have Goshiu and a couple of Shapeshifters and the opponent doesn't have the favor
or I have Confusion
Yeah, it's good stuff. Just takes a long time to set up, and relies on Uniques.
[CE] Question under celestial rules. Can a reaction be taken at a battlefield without presence? Like hamstrung?
Yes, Reactions donāt require presence
Note that the Rules of Presence and Location only apply to Battle actions.
But not Open actions?
[Jade] alright hereās a good one: Iām at -18 family honor. I bring Hoseki in for full cost. She loses 2 honor but gains 1 from her PH. Is this like mtg and you lose as a state based kinda thing? Or are both the neg and pos tallied simultaneously?
Open actions cannot be taken during Battle from SE onwards.
How are you gaining Hoseki's PH? Are you playing Dark Path of Shadow, or did you hit her with Creating the Monkey Clan out of a different box?
Just from the ph of her card
Like just paying full cost of card
Do you not gain the honor if they are outside your clan?
yeah you only get it for in clan
Oh
No, you don't. You also do not have the option to reduce their cost by 2 if they are out-of-Clan.