Counterattack creates additional Attack Phase, so i can't see anything against playing ACtA
[Imperial]
Can I play A Call To Arms off my opponent’s Counterattack?
Sun and Moon #rules-questions
Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
IVORY- Fear effects printed on a card can only be used once per turn correct?
yes
they would need to say repeatable
unless it says repeatable
Since Lotus edition any ability may be used only once per turn unless it says "any times per turn" or has Repeatable designator.
(EEx) cards like breaking the rhythm or creating order negate bonus from items and spells? for example I have a 4F personality and I attach a +3F weapon, my opponent plays an action that negates bonus, If no more bonus are played the unit will have 4F in resolution instead of 7F?
Weapons have modifiers, not bonuses.
So BtR does nothing against modifiers from Items.
But BtR negates bonuses provided by eg. traits like "This Personality Has +3F".
I was reading the CR for emperor:
[attachment: image.png]
and is probably I need more coffee , but as I read a modifier in a weapon is a bonus
Ah, need to check this. In Ivory CR it's stated that modifier isn't bonus or penalty. Maybe it was introduced in this edition/
BtR from AM was released in December 2013. I've found rules thread from 27th December 2013 bout BtR and Item interaction and it was "under discussion" untill they answered a month later with Ivory rulebook quote (as A Matter of Honor was released). So at this point i believe that BtR under EE negates Weapons. But it's because this card is written this way. Other negations like Shameful Injury work for actions only.
That second to last bullet precludes weapon modifiers from being a bonus. A weapon is a component card of the unit (edit: i need coffee it does not say that. However, id argue it does imply that component cards are not bonuses)
It's more about this example like destroying Follower doesn't count as a penalty for unit's force.
Yeah I was just updating that.
Under EE rules are item modifiers themselves stats?
Items Items, with a dark blue background, are attachments that represent special objects in a Personality’s possession.
Unlike the separate Force of Followers, Items have a Force modifier stat in the upper left hand icon that directly raises or lowers their Personality’s Force. Items likewise have a Chi modifier stat that directly raises or lowers their Personality’s Chi.
If something in the game needs to check an Item’s Force or Chi separately from its Personality’s stats, use the value of its modifier (minimum zero).
Force and Chi bonuses or penalties to an Item affect the modifier; for example, a +1F Item that suffers -2F now has a -1F modifier.
See also Weapon and Armor.
Then, Can I use BtR against weapons?
At this point, yes.
This card was written for Ivory in mind, but it seems it has such weird interacion under EE
Other popular negations from era like Shameful Injury or Creating Order are about actions only.
Yeah, I use Creating Order from memory instead read the card
Is there any CE/EE era card that negates any bonuses?
One terrain I think
If you find its name - i could check rules for this one.
[attachment: image0.jpg]
From actions
@Brook Cunningham so it seems that BtR is ultimate kensai/weapon meta in Emperor and EEex
And it's this post
[attachment: image.png]
Aftermath (bridge EE/IvE expansion) and A Matter of Honor (Ivory Learn to Play set) were - as its written in Wiki - both released in December 2013.
But it was still EE, as base Ivory set was released in March 2014
I don;t know if answering for EE question with Ivory rulebook should be valid.
But maybe @Brook Cunningham may have an answer for this one.
It feels weird to me that you can turn what is essentially a stat off, but being able to do so also does not surprise me one bit. If L5R didnt have absolute rules jank like that, it wouldn't be the game we know and love lol
Yeah, but it worked like for a month or two.
With Ivory introduction it also affected all Open/Legacy (Items' modifiers aren't bonuses or penalties). So only directly Emperor suffer because how this card is written (that was made with Ivory changes in mind).
We lost a use for this in OBH
[attachment: image0.jpg]
🙁
Well, it seems telling that (what I assume is) the EE Item definition you posted above is already using the term "modifiers" for Item stats and does not directly call them "bonuses"? Did you find nothing more specifically addressing the distinction elsewhere in the EE CR, similar to how the difference is underscored in the 20F CR? I can't access either easily on phone.
Difference is that a sentence about modifiers arrived in Ivory Comprehensive Rules and its missing in earlier ones (CE and EE).
(link)
First sentence there.
Ah, I overlooked Efirm's post with the definition/exceptions.
Yeah, I guess if Item modifiers weren't a specific exception until Ivory, then they're bonuses. 🙁 Honestly, I recall LE-EE as a rough time period for both bonuses and negation. I was happy to be past it into a really simple and well-codified system, one of the few Ivory streamlinings that went well.
[ShE] So, if Ryusei attempts to duel someone, and then that player uses Master of Puppets to redirect to a Shadowlands personality the Crab player controls, is that legal? Like, by the wording of the cards, it seems like it should be, but I seem to recall there being some kind of issue with dueling a personality in your own army?
But, Master of Puppets says you can target as if it were part of your army. So... just wanted to check on that. I feel like there a few different ways it could be resolved.
[attachment: ShE_071_details.png] [attachment: ShE_265_details.png]
Answers on: Master of Puppets
So, yes, Master of Puppets will allow you to change the target as if you were taking the action, so it will allow you to change the target to a Shadowlands Personality in Ryusei's own army controlled by her controller because they're an "enemy" from your perspective, but then the challenge/duel will fail because of the Rule that two Personalities in a duel must have different controllers.
Alright, good to know.
Thanks
In ivory and 20f if I use the card sudden movement as a focus in the duel and win, is it a temporary +3F or permanent?
Answers on: Sudden Movement
Just for the remainder of the turn, it is not a permanent force bonus
Thank you, was my guess but wanted to double check
All ongoing effects have a default "end of turn" duration unless explicitly stated otherwise.
[EEEX] Mysterious Deaths says: "Each player targets their lowest cost personality", and Muscle and Steel says: "After another player's action targets one of your personalities"
Can you respond to the targeting of Mysterious Deaths with Muscle and Steel, provided that personality has a 7+ cost attachment to bow?
Answers on: Mysterious Deaths, Muscle and Steel
[attachment: printing_5447_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_5468_1_details.png]
Sure, but what are the odds that he will, if he's your lowest-cost unit? ;P
if he's my only personality, quite high
I dont get it... you are targeting your personality and not the action from your opponent so it could not be negated by M&S?
Or is "destroy all targets" here the relevant part?
it's because the "player" is the one targeting, not the "card". In Magic, this would be like an Edict getting through Shroud.
MaS doesn't React to who is choosing the targeting, it Reacts to what is causing it. The other player's action is doing the targeting, even if you (not that player) are also doing it.
but I think L5R did it different. I just don't recall how
[ShE] If my opponent forces me to defend a province, but all my personalities are bowed, do I still have to assign one of them to that province when the opponent attacks?
[attachment: 000.jpg]
No. You can't, per the rules, assigned bowed Personalities. The effects of this card do not create an exception to that rule.
Ok, thank you
[Imperial]
If I target an overlayed personality, only the exp one is shuffled?
[attachment: printing_34_1_details.png]
[ShE] Does this trait affect personalities in discard piles as well?
[attachment: ShE_351_details.png]
I couldn't find a contemporary Ruling, unfortunately. My best guess is only the top card, based solely on the fact that the top and bottom are treated like two cards for Honor gained in Battle Resolution.
No. Traits only affect cards in play unless they specifically say "in and out of play" (or if the effect is to itself).
thanks. That makes sense
They both form the personality, though... wouldn't they both go back? In EE don't attachments get shuffled back as well?
Looking at the oracle wording… it says the attachments are still destroyed.
Looking at the printed wording, all attached cards are destroyed ;). But, that said, I don't think the underlying Personality is technically attached? Either way, I think I'm probably right for contemporary Imperial.
As for EE, I believe that's when overlaying began RFGing the underlying card immediately upon overlay.
Crap, I meant imperial not emperor. I also meant in general, attachments would have been shuffled back along with a personality, where in more modern editions they are discarded unless mentioned otherwise (hence why this card has to specifically mention that attachments are destroyed to prevent them from being shuffled back).
Wasn't the overlayed card back then just considered to be part of the personality and transferring its abilities and traits?
Sure it gives 2 extra honor, but that just counts number of cards destroyed, not card 'identities'.
At least that's how I seem to remember it was done back then.
It's actually in more modern cases (at least I know for sure in the 20F CR) that if a Personality leaves play, their attachments leave play the same way unless otherwise stated, which is why I thought you did mean EE. But I don't believe there was any default like that back then; it was just explicit on AGD because it was such an edge case to reshuffle anything in that they had to say the rest of the cards are still destroyed because no one could be sure what happened otherwise.
Hmm. Actually. Do you recall if destroying an overlaid Personality in a battle counted as 2FH or 4FH?
If it only gave 2FH, then I would say that AGD doesn't affect the underlaid card, which is just discarded, just like during destruction of the overlaid card.
(link)
Oh, hey, helps to read. Thanks!
[ShE] If I used my Wind this turn to take the Imperial Favor, can I lobby the old way in the same turn?
No, “Lobbying” is once per turn
Thats what I thought but I couldn't find where it mentioned that in the rules.
I'm having some difficulty locating it in the Onyx Datasheet myself, but it's possible that something happened and it was accidentally cut off in a revision. We're looking into it, as well as an apparent dropping of some other text in the Interrupt/Response section that makes it clear neither type of action can be Interrupted or Responded to.
Just checking: For the purposes of the current ShE tourney, and as it appears there is currently no rule against using the wind lobby action on the same turn as the rulebook lobby ability, could we please get a clarification soon on this? We plan to play tournament games in less than 24 hours time.
Well, I had assumed it was possible precisely because nothing in the Onyx Datasheet seems to prevent it
[attachment: image.png]
I believe all winds have a lobbying action so no you could not do a rulebook lobbying action
No, you can still do the rulebook lobby action, what you cannot do is using the imperial favor to draw and discard or to send an attacker home
I though the wind replaces the rulebook lobbying and just in case I was using House Suikihime as an example
There's a difference between lobbying and favor actions. What Winds do, according to the Onyx Datasheet, is replace rulebook favor actions with the ones on the Wind cards. But the Lobby actions printed on Wind cards do not replace the rulebook lobby action, because lobby is not a favor action.
did it change in Onyx?
The Onyx Datasheet has a rule that Lobbying (whether from a Wind or the Rulebook) is only once per turn. But the Onyx ShE Datasheet doesn't have this rule. Perhaps it has accidentally been missed off as MacBeth mentioned above. So until there is a clarification, in ShE it appears that Lobby can be both Rulebook and Wind lobby in the same turn
I can assert with certainty that its removal was not intentional. I am trying to see if a correction can be implemented with haste, but the document is not my direct purview.
a player a player My apologies for not being able to find it earlier. The Rule is present on the Onyx/ShE Datasheet, on the last page, 11:
[attachment: image.png]
Excellent thank you! All good now
:bow:
[ShE] Black Riders cannot target Rekha Suresh with its original force, right? However, what happens if Black Riders somehow gets +1F? could it target Rekha Suresh, then? And if Black Riders has its original force, could it target Aohama if Aohama has +1 GP because of the Imperial Favor?
[attachment: 003.jpg] [attachment: 002.jpg] [attachment: 001.jpg]
If Black Riders could get a +1 they could target Rekha Suresh for Aohama if the opponent does not have the favor it could target with original force but if the opponent has the favor can still target because gold production goes up not gold cost.
That's what I thought, thanks
[ShE] If I recruit him paying 2 additional gold since he is not part of my clan, does his gold cost raise to 5? Or his gold cost remains at 3? What happens if I use the response? Does his gold cost change?
[attachment: 004.jpg]
The paying 2 more gold is a rule book effect so the gold cost stays at 3
If the rule book had said permanently increase by 2 then the cost would be 5
The Response is not an Invest, therefore would not increase his GC.
Note as well that the Response only checks if the action Recruited him: any other way of entering play (for example the Event "Unexpected Allies" ) would not allow use of the Response.
Wait... Does invest permanently increase the cost or until end of turn?
Permanently
[ShE] I can activate this event in the opponent's turn, right?
[attachment: 005.jpg]
yes
is an open event
Thanks a lot guys
I can't find it anywhere, but in ShE, is there a caveat in the rules somewhere that rings can't be removed from the game?
Used to be card reference, but recently it was added to the rules that other players can’t banish your Rings. You can, however, banish your own
Is it in the onyx doc or the 20f doc?
I want to say the Onyx doc
ok thanks
Yep, SHE/onyx thank you!
[Imperial]
Can I have Kolat Assassin in my discard pile and still use Lies, Lies, Lies… since the oracle text includes the discard pile, but not in the card
[attachment: image0.jpg]
Answers on: Kolat Assassin, Lies, Lies, Lies...
In Imperial, yes, you can. Oracle text is based on the Samurai Edition MRP.
[ShE] Just want to be sure the ignore cost does it include Invest if the personality has an invest?
[attachment: ShE_007_details.png]
From the Onyx/ShE datasheet: "Invest - Upon being played, permanently increase the Gold Cost by the Invest cost to get the effect."
So I would say yes
I figured just wanted to be sure thank you.
[Imperial]
Is the Gohei trait affected by Monsoon? We are a bit confused about the first few lines. Monsoon says any action that gives a bonus is negated. In the 2nd it says 'All temporary bonuses', so does that include traits?
@Brook Cunningham
[attachment: printing_4913_1_details.png] [attachment: printing_5230_1_details.png]
Answers on: Monsoon
I personally think just for actions, but my friends want to confirm with you
How nice! Yeah, even back then, there was a clear distinction of what an "action" was, and Gohei's trait isn't, so it should be unaffected. The second Monsoon sentence is likely adding to the confusion, but I don't think it should be taken separately and is just adding qualifiers to the effects of the first.
Yes that's what I thought too
Thank you
[OBH] Quick question what is the exact definition of Yu (keyword)?
If you mean rulebook rule about it (as we are in (link) ), just tag a question.
I do but I don't know the edition. edit when in doubt, OBH i guess
It should be in OBH Rules, but it's definitely in AEG Legacy doc.
It's also in Diamond and Lotus rulebook
ill check the legacy doc. The OBH rules start to be comprehensive and just...stop
its weird
Yu was introduced in late Gold (link)
[SE] Can someone clarify setting sun strike for me. Does the straightening mean the personality counts his force at battle resolution?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Setting Sun Strike
Nope
Unbows the personality before resolution
That's a misleading as answer in a vacuum. It mostly does mean that.
erm
lol im confuse
Ok
Peep gets targeted with an action that bows you react with Sun at the end of the battle before resolution the peep unbows
So, SSS creates a delayed effect that straightens the Personality just before the battle's resolution begins. Therefore, if he becomes bowed by anything else during the battle, he'll be straightened again at the end, and therefore contribute Force because he's not bowed during resolution.
And it only works for heros
Ok this is how I read it
its for my Crab hero deck
I mean, not necessarily. The Personality could have been targeted by any opponent's action to trigger the SSS Reaction, and subsequently bowed by any later unrelated action in the same battle, and SSS will still straighten him just before resolution.
It does have to be an opponent’s action
I said that.
Or did you mean the bowing? Because no, it doesn't.
You said could have been targeted by an opponent and is not could it’s has to
That is to get the full effect of sss
"Could" in this context means the whole scenario is hypothetical and plausible. Its presence in the sentence doesn't imply any specific circumstances can be changed and still be true.
You can't play SSS at all unless the trigger is met, being "After another player's action targets your Hero Personality during a Combat Segment". The rest of what I said "could" also happen in conjunction with that, so it is not wrong to say that whole sequence "could" happen.
Further, it was meant to stand in contrast to your previous statement which appeared to imply the opponent's action had to bow the Hero, clarifying that it did not have to.
Again the most benefit would be getting bowed but you can use it against range, fear and melee attacks too ohh and duels of force before I forget that one
Well, arguably, it's of more benefit if you use it against an RA or MA that would kill the Hero and the +3F prevents it, because bowed is easier to overcome than dead, but I think we've generally landed on the same page at least. 😛
Dont forget to tag your questions, please. Is its for Samurai edition edit your post and add [Samurai] or [SE] at the start. Non tagged questions will be deleted.
done
The basic answer yes the personality counts
[CW] When Ninja Shapeshifter copies the force or chi does it count any modifiers on the copied personality or is it just copying the printed force/chi value on that card? Similarly, does Shiba Tetsu count chi modifiers on the targeted shugenja when he gains the chi bonus?
when ninja copies force and chi is counting the modifiers too. Tetsu same thing includes the modifiers
Now things would change if it said printed force and chi.
[ShE] Does The Akasha count toward Enlightenment victories? And if so, how?
Answers on: The Akasha
(link) or it will be removed
No. The Akasha doesn't because it has no element keyword, and Path of Violence because it has a specific trait saying it doesn't.
[ShE] Is the rulebook lobby action (Lobby Political Open: If it is your turn and you have higher Family Honor than each other player, bow your target unbowed Personality with 1 or more Personal Honor to take the Imperial Favor.) considered a rulebook favor action for purposes of having a Wind?
No. Favor actions are defined as having that keyword or discarding the Favor as a cost.
I see. So a wind may give you an alternative way of lobbying, but you can still only lobby once per turn be default.
Well, not by "default" so much as by a specific special Rule that only allows you to Lobby once per turn by either means.
Keep in mind that there are holdings, strategies, and personalities that allow you to take the imperial favor. That way you are able to ""lobby"" more than once per turn
[OBH] Does searching for a card and putting it in your hand count as drawing a card?
No.
[OBH] When an action makes you discard your hand, can you play reactions to it from your hand, before its effect takes place?
Depends on the wording of the Reaction trigger. Specific examples?
Overwhelming Chaos, Ring o/t Void, Face of Ninube
Answers on: Overwhelming Chaos, Face of Ninube
oh reaction trigger
None of those are the... yep.
Draw them out
Answers on: Gozoku Strategies, Draw Them Out
Gozoku Strategies
Your question does not exactly compute? Neither of those Reactions are triggered by discarding, only by drawing.
I'm basically wondering if I play overwhelming chaos, can I play Gozoku Strategies before I redraw my hand
Answers on: Gozoku Strategies, Overwhelming Chaos
Ah! No. You play it after the other player draws, which is well after you've both discarded everything.
Damn that requires more setup
Yeah, like you could draw into Gozo Strat after the Chaos dump and play it, but not before.
And to elaborate on the previous question, you can't play Gozo Strat as reaction to opponent's Accepting the Choice for example?
Nor Draw Them Out
Accepting the Choice's effect is not drawing, so you can't react to it with GS. Draw Them Out's effects doesn't draw cards either, but it is itself Reacting to drawing, so you could presumably React with GS to the same draw that DTO Reacted to... or...
Oh, I see. You were asking about DTO reacting to AtC? Right? It cannot, for the same reason.
Alright back to the drawing board... for more attempts at evil shenanigans 😒
[OBH]. The minimum province stength in OBH is zero, correct? So if I was a dark path of shadow player, I could play Shisha Infestation and it wouldn't impact my province stength?
I am not saying this is a good plan, but it would work?
[attachment: image0.jpg]
You are right.
Also check this one.
[attachment: printing_963_1_details.png]
Amazing! Thanks on both accounts!
That was a solid Spider breeder combo in Samurai edition in combination with Katsu. As this death could also trigger Fatina.
[attachment: printing_4298_1_details.png]
[ShE] I can't access the documents right now, and I want to double-check something. Can any personality equip a Two-Handed Weapon?
Yes. It only prevents Kensai from equipping two of them.
Thanks!
[ShE] Do multiple instances of Expendable stack?
[attachment: rn_image_picker_lib_temp_cbd2ae46-a97a-4417-b346-11c1d740824c.jpg]
No
Alright, good to know.
Gotta find someone with a repeatable sacrifice ability.
More broadly, a card can only ever have 1 instance of a keyword upon it. An effect that attempts to give a card a keyword that it already has simply fails.
Is this stated somewhere, I tried looking at (my midnight) and couldn't find it to quickly (but I knew this was correct)
Absolutely, though it may take a sec for me to find the reference either....
It's probably under keywords or sammmthing
...CR pg 14, last paragraph.
[ShE] If the ability is Tactical it is required to target a Tactician to use it? Even if the card itself does not say it?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
Onyx/ShE Rules Datasheet, last page:
[attachment: image.png]
Thanks!
[ShE] Things such as range, melee, fear can be negated with this card, since the target stops being legal once it leaves the battlefield, right? Same goes for bowing? What about force/chi penalties? What effects cannot be negated with this strategy?
[attachment: Sin_titulo.jpg]
I'll be honest the way that card is worded makes no sense and yes it does negate the force and chi penalties. The personality is not there to be targeted.
Even tokens??
Basically, whatever that Interrupts, after you move the target home, ask yourself, "Could they have been targeted with the Interrupted action if they had always been at home, from the point of its announcement?" If the answer is "no", negate it.
Thanks!
[ShE] Can you interrupt a response?
if there was a card that could do that yes
Asking flames protections vs WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
Answers on: What Have You Done!?
Can the spell Flames protections, negate the WHAT HAVE YOU DONE response
No. Interrupts and Responses can be neither Interruptted nor Responded to.
Again if there was a card I did say that
That's a pretty vague answer. At the least, you should've added "only" if there was a card that allowed it. Plus, there is no such card effect that allows such a break of sequence.
No.
Alrighty another rules question
Answers on: Secrets on the Wind
ShE Secrets on the Wind Spell
If it is attached to a Scorpion Shugenja. Does the shugenja bow, or does the "unless they are scorpion clan" referring to the bowing as well?
Just the token destroying is exempted.
Weak
I mean, take it up with the people who designed the Spell 30 years ago? 😛
[ShE] Is she earth?
[attachment: Yesui.jpg]
Yes, she has the earth keyword printed
[Imperial]
Can my opponent ‘step up’ a samurai if I don’t have a personality on my side to accept or refuse?
[attachment: image0.jpg]
Yes. I base this on the clearer GE wording of the card, and I cannot find any contemporary Ruling that indicates it worked any differently in Clan War/Jade eras.
Thank you
Answers on: Plea of the Peasants
[Imperial]
Can I move a personality into my province during battle (after assignments) and still play Plea of the Peasants when the province is destroyed?
Since the card says when no units were assigned to defend
[attachment: printing_5986_1_details.png]
Yep, that works. Only cares about "assigned" Defenders, not sneaky move-in-later ones.
Wow nice!