Sun and Moon #rules-questions

May 2022

Messages from the Sun and Moon #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.

A player, 2 May 2022 22:29

How do cards like Hida Kuon, Hida Yaheiko, or Hiruma Nikaru line up against cards like Flanked by Nightmares or Flanking Action? Each Personality has an ability that negates targeted destruction, but in the two battle strategies I mentioned, it is the leader of those personalities that is doing the targeting. Does this get around the destruction negation, or are they still being targeted as a result of an opponents battle action?

A player, 2 May 2022 22:30
[attachment: unknown.png] [attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 2 May 2022 22:32
[attachment: unknown.png] [attachment: unknown.png] [attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:23

I think as all mentioned above Yaheiko, Nikaru and Kuon trigger/react to targeting from opposing action/ability as a whole, there;s no matter who targets.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:23
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:24
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 09:26

Hello

A player, 3 May 2022 09:26

Lotus and samurΓ‘i arc

A player, 3 May 2022 09:26

Can be placed together?

A player, 3 May 2022 09:26

Played

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:30

I think it's possible but there was massive power level change between Lotus and Samurai. Lotus has a lot mechanical keywords and mechanics that were removed in Samurai. To describe what was a difference - many cards from bridge Lotus/Samurai expansions like Khan's Defiance or The Truest Test that were mediocre in Lotus environemnt but became overpowered staples through whole Samurai edition.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:33

All you need is to focus what ruleset you want to use, Lotus or Samurai. Here's a list of changes between Samurai and Lotus

[attachment: Samurai_Edition_rules_changes.htm]
A player, 3 May 2022 09:37

Mmm I see

A player, 3 May 2022 09:37

The idea is to use allΓ­ cards, but with Lotus rules

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:38

So if you want to combine Samurai and Lotus you may just use Samurai rulebook as a Core and add Lotus mechanics of keywords like Yu, Ninjutsu,, Formation etc. If any card will make some troubles (as it is saying about combining Ranged attacks or other Lotus specific stuff), just ignore it.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:39 · in reply

it's also a way, but then you have to make something eg about duels and focus pools

A player, 3 May 2022 09:39

eg?

A player, 3 May 2022 09:40

I use Lotus duel rules, duelist, unbowed, Focus pool 3+1hand, death as result unless other specified

A player, 3 May 2022 09:40

Etc

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:42

in Samurai you may just focus one card directly from hand, you don't add tis card from hand into focus pool. but maybe it's just cosmetic

A player, 3 May 2022 09:42

Okok

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:42

and bowed guys may issue challenges if card allows it

A player, 3 May 2022 09:43

Yep, only the ones Who could by text

A player, 3 May 2022 09:43

And I plan to add later diamond

A player, 3 May 2022 09:43

To play a full set of the same design of cards

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:43

also, there are some Lotus cards reprinted in Samurai base set with MRP like Perfection

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:43
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:44
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 09:44

MRP?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:44

most recent printing

A player, 3 May 2022 09:44

Mmmm yes

A player, 3 May 2022 09:44

Im using the most recent

A player, 3 May 2022 09:44

Like No Victory

A player, 3 May 2022 09:44

And others

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:47

yep, some card like No Victory got errata during arc, but there were some Lotus cards reprinted in base Samurai that got removed Lotus specific keywords like Yu

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:48
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:48
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:49
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:49
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 09:49

In that cases I have to use the full one

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:51

what about Spider guys? in Samurai some ex-Shadowlands Horde Personalities gained Spider clan alignment.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:51
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:51
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:51

πŸ™‚

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:52

or got abilities changed

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:52
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 09:52
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 09:54

I dont know with them

A player, 3 May 2022 09:54

I think only playing onis

A player, 3 May 2022 09:54

Haha

A player, 3 May 2022 09:55

Under Shadowland SH

A player, 3 May 2022 10:06
[attachment: printing_315_3_details.jpg]
A player, 3 May 2022 10:07

Or using the right printing if using one or another sh

A player, 3 May 2022 10:07

I mean daigotsu masami under SH ir under Spider, using the right printing for eachone

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:23

what about this?

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:23
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:24

first one fit Lotus with is comboistic ability, when in Samurai they nerfed it to fit more new environment

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:26

This one got also nerf:

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:26
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 10:26
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 10:27

The newest

A player, 3 May 2022 10:27

Nerfs are ok

A player, 3 May 2022 10:27

Or updates

A player, 3 May 2022 14:17

Can the card stolen merchandise steal a gold producing ability? At first we thought it couldn't, but rereading it, we aren't sure. A buddy of mine and I recently got into modern format using the decklists in the Dropbox (thanks for those by the way, they are very helpful). We're having a blast but the more we learn about the game the more we learn we're playing little interactions incorrectly.

A player, 3 May 2022 14:19

It can copy gold production, yes

A player, 3 May 2022 14:19
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 14:19

Thanks!

A player, 3 May 2022 14:41
[attachment: printing_7582_1_select.jpg] [attachment: printing_7581_1_select.jpg] [attachment: printing_7580_1_select.jpg]
A player, 3 May 2022 14:41

This 3 cards are a combo?

A player, 3 May 2022 14:43

I Mean if I have strike the summit ill be able to search center

A player, 3 May 2022 14:43

Reaction with it

A player, 3 May 2022 14:43

ANd then search base and react

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 19:41 · in reply

yes

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 19:44 · in reply

Keda's answer is partially truth becasue Stolen Merchandise cant copy gold production of Twenty Festivals holdings. Why? Becasue since base Twenty Festivals set Holdings have "gold producing stat" than trait.

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 19:45

eg

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 19:46

Same holding in Emperor had trait:

[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 19:51

Interesting. I think for the sake of ease we will probably use the emperor editions of holdings to keep things simple. That way there's not a few random holdings that it can't copy.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 20:01

When we played Modern we always played with MRP versions of cards so we used Stolen Mechandise this way it couldnt copy Twenty Festivals (including reprints), Thunderous Acclaim and Evil Portents holdings. Thats also why i kicked SM out some decks as it eg can't copy Forgotten Legacy gold production so you can be surprised when you buy it first turn adn your opponent will go for FL.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 20:01
[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 3 May 2022 20:08

Ah, so it added a bit more strategy to your games. Is there a community that still plays modern these days?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 3 May 2022 20:11

i suppose there are probably some local groups that play this format. people esometimes asks questions in various l5r-oriented social media channels like facebook or discord. l5r ccg gaming nowadays is just about local groups - there's no organized worldwide tournaments (including online) or something like this

A player, 4 May 2022 11:11
[attachment: Screenshot_2022-05-04-13-11-45-170_cn.wps.moffice_eng.jpg]
A player, 4 May 2022 11:12

Does this Guy must be at any Battle to use its abilty

A player, 4 May 2022 11:12

Or also in home

kempy_nezumi (not official), 4 May 2022 11:26

He may be anywhere, in other battlefield or even at home. Anyway to play his ability you need to have any other Personality in current battle if Sugi isnt there.

A player, 4 May 2022 11:27

Ok

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:06

Stolen Merchandise can copy gold production.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:15

Hi by what I tremember

A player, 4 May 2022 12:15

A personality uses a printed ablity

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:16

(Well, it will do, as soon as Brook and I agree on new wording)

A player, 4 May 2022 12:16

If an opposite can react and kill the first one, the first ability wont resolve right?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:16

Kill the first what?

A player, 4 May 2022 12:17

The first guy

A player, 4 May 2022 12:17

The one Who is trying to use its printed

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:19

That's not "the first". That's the only Personality you've mentioned.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:20

The opposite is the second one xD

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:20

That's never described as "an opposite".

A player, 4 May 2022 12:20

But what I mean, unlike Magic, destroying the origin of an ability prevents It from occur

A player, 4 May 2022 12:21

Right?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:21

The answer would be the same whether the ability was on a Personality, a Strategy, a Holding, or whatever.

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:23

But no, if the ability is on a card in play, destroying that card during the action doesn't necessarily prevent the action.

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:24

Certain abilities can have that effect, but it's explicit in their text.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:24

Could you please give me an example?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:24

https://oracleofthevoid.com/#game=l5r,#cardid=2349

A player, 4 May 2022 12:25 · in reply

It doest redirects me to a card

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:25

Enough Talk!

A player, 4 May 2022 12:26

I can only think in things like, with my personality, Battle: issue a challenge. Then my oppoment reacts with anything like ranged attack and kill my guy

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:26

If you kill one of the participants in a duel, the duel ends immediately.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:26

Yes

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:26

But that's a specific thing with duels.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:26

In that cases the action is stopped

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:26

No.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:26

If my action is also a ranged

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:26

The duel ends.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:27

Will my ranged have effect?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:27

What Reaction would that be?

A player, 4 May 2022 12:27

My Battle: ranged attack

A player, 4 May 2022 12:27

The enemy reaction: ranged attack to my guy

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:27

That's a Battle ability, not a Reaction or Interrupt.

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:28

Such as?

A player, 4 May 2022 12:29
[attachment: printing_7180_1_select.jpg]
A player, 4 May 2022 12:29

If I target this Guy with a ranged

A player, 4 May 2022 12:29

And he reacts

A player, 4 May 2022 12:30

What happend

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:31

Potentially, you both die.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:42

And when a Battle /open is declared

A player, 4 May 2022 12:42

Who has the first oportunity to react?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:44

You mean, "when a Battle or Open action is declared," right?

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:45

The active player has the first opportunity to React.

A player, 4 May 2022 12:45

Yep

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:46

The active player has the first opportunity take an action in all action rounds except the Combat Segment, where the Defender has the first such opportunity.

Alex Jones (rules official), 4 May 2022 12:47

(And maybe the Engagement Segment...)

A player, 4 May 2022 12:56

Thanks

kempy_nezumi (not official), 5 May 2022 07:53

Stolen Merchandise just got update in Oracle so it may copy gold production from 20F holdings now.

Alex Jones (rules official), 5 May 2022 08:19

Yeah, Brook fixed it after I pointed it out.

Alex Jones (rules official), 5 May 2022 08:20

In an ideal world, we'd errata all Holdings with a Gold-producing trait to have a Gold Production stat, but that's quite a lot of work πŸ™‚

A player, 5 May 2022 15:16

Oh okay. That makes things less complicated then. Thanks!

A player, 6 May 2022 10:53

Question

A player, 6 May 2022 10:53

Bowed items still Give S or C bonus?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 May 2022 13:22

Yes.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 May 2022 13:24

But Items dont give bonuses. They have F or C modifiers of Personality's stats. So thats why cards that negate bonuses usually don't affect those modifiers.

A player, 6 May 2022 16:24

Or until usted again

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 May 2022 17:18 · in reply

?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 May 2022 17:21

I wanted to say that if you have 4F Personality with +5F Item and you play Charge (+2F) then Personality has 4 + 5 + 2 = 11F. If you then play Breaking the Rhytm on him his force became 4 + 5 = 9F because Weapon';s modifier isn't bonus.

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 6 May 2022 17:27
[attachment: unknown.png]
Alex Jones (rules official), 6 May 2022 17:28

Note that the distinction between "modifiers" and "bonuses"/"penalties" only came in in Ivory.

A player, 6 May 2022 20:14

Thanks

A player, 6 May 2022 20:14

3 marches this afternoon

A player, 6 May 2022 20:15

Dragon duels vs Phoenix dragons twice

A player, 6 May 2022 20:15

And dragon monks vs shadowlands onis

A player, 7 May 2022 11:37

Do you have any ninjutsu list?

A player, 7 May 2022 16:25

Whats the Max hand size?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 7 May 2022 17:40

You have to discard at End Phase (or end of Dynasty phase in case of Ivory) until you have maximum 8 cards in your hand. But earlier, during whole turn you can have draw any number of cards.

A player, 7 May 2022 18:43

Ok

A player, 7 May 2022 18:43

Thanks

A player, 11 May 2022 11:58

Hello

A player, 11 May 2022 11:59

Can Takige react inncase another friendly personality dies due a duel result?

Alex Jones (rules official), 11 May 2022 12:46

If the duel is from another player's card, yes.

A player, 11 May 2022 12:49

Thabks

A player, 11 May 2022 17:27
[attachment: 20220511_192644.jpg]
A player, 11 May 2022 17:27

What is a recon action?

Alex Jones (rules official), 11 May 2022 17:28

An action with the Recon keyword.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 11 May 2022 17:32

there are cards that trigger if you target Province with Recon ability, eg

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 11 May 2022 17:33 · in reply

example of Recon ability from Lotus:

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 11 May 2022 17:36

during its time Kadano was popular in some Ratling decks that played eg this guy:

[attachment: unknown.png]
A player, 11 May 2022 17:48

Thanks

kempy_nezumi (not official), 15 May 2022 09:57

there's question on fb group:

kempy_nezumi (not official), 15 May 2022 09:57

"my impression is, yoshi's effect is a "substitute effect" which seppun sensei can protect a player from. . or does yoshi sensei prevail over seppun sensei?"

kempy_nezumi (not official), 15 May 2022 09:57
[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 15 May 2022 09:57
[attachment: unknown.png]
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 02:28

I believe Seppun sensei protects you from Yoshi sensei (I would say Yoshi's capping Proclaim gains at 1 would be a decrease rather than a substitution, but that's splitting hairs pointlessly πŸ˜› ).

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 12:08

Not sure about that, Brook.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 12:09

Oh, we're talking about the first bit, rather than the 2nd, right? The Proclaiming reduction?

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 12:09

Yeah, that's a decrease, and Seppun Sensei stops it.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 16 May 2022 18:46

Mark drop this answer in facebook:

[attachment: unknown.png]
Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 20:01

Link pls, and I'll correct him.

kempy_nezumi (not official), 16 May 2022 20:02

https://www.facebook.com/groups/FortressOfTheForgotten/posts/4598310123601757/

[Fortress of the Forgotten | Facebook]
Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:12

@Brook Cunningham

[attachment: unknown.png]
Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:17

Looking at the original text of Seppun Sense - "Your Honor losses and gains cannot be changed, redirected or copied" - I think that it should protect against Yoshi Sensei, because that's quite definitely a "change", even if it's not a "decrease".

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:18

So... We either change the text of "Reduction", or we make "Decrease" and "Reduction" mean different things, or we re-word Seppun Sensei.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:20

I think the first option is a rabbit hole of unknown depth, while the second just revolts me.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:23

The third makes me queasy, but that's mostly because I can't think of a good wording.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 21:24

"... will not be negated, substituted, numerically changed, given to another player, or copied"?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:10

Well, how about just add "given a minimum or maximum" to the list of things Seppun Sensei prevents, since that would be a "change"?

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:12

I guess, although you then get into trouble with effects that already have a maximum.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:13

Hrm... yeah, I'll have to think on it. Maybe "given a minimum or maximum from another source". :/

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:13

Eg Flash of Steel

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:15

What's wrong with "numerically changed"?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:16

So do you like it with "from another source", or are we running into the question of at what point does trying to spell everything out to be clear make things less clear? πŸ˜›

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:18

"numerically changed" covers all options, and is an awful lot shorter than "increased, decreased, given a minimum or maximum from another source" - which I'm not entirely convinced covers everything πŸ™‚

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:18

Numerically changed might work. Except, what if you put the Night Medallion on someone who does Honor things? πŸ˜›

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:19

Ugh

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:19

Well, is that an increase, anyway?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:19

I guess that's a "change", so it should be stopped. Yeah. πŸ™‚

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:19

Really?

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:20

I think that's a change to the ability, not a change to the effect.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:20

Ugh... yeah, fair point.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:21

Seppun Sensei is banned. There, I fixed it. πŸ˜‰

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:21

I beat you to the "ugh".

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:23

Also: Shiryo no Tetsuya

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:23

(Not just Night Medallion)

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:23

Maybe "given a minimum or maximum from another effect" might be the best thing? :/

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:23

Nah

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:23

"Numerically changed".

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:24

And clarify that Night Medallion and Shiryo no Tetsuya change the ability, not the effect.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:24

Ok.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:25

Seppun Sensei only prevents extrinsic changes.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:25

Hm.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:25

Deeds not Words might be problematic there.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:26

Fuck it, if it's simpler if Night Medallion is stopped by Seppun Sensei, then I'm happy.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:27

It doesn't stop Night Medallion on Kitsu Sanako πŸ™‚

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:28

Well, I did the thing already before you brought up Deeds. πŸ˜› Should I just get rid of the paranthetical?

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:29

Nah, that works.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:29

You went with long wording as reminder text.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:30

Works for me πŸ™‚

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:31

The current wording of Deeds not Words is clearly stopped by Seppun Sensei.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:33

The downsides of Deeds, that is? The upsides of Deeds are separate additional gains, or does it stop them too? :/

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:34

The downsides only.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:35

The upsides are separate 1 point gains - they're additional gains, not increases to existing gains.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:35

Cool, yep; just making sure. πŸ˜›

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:37

Dang it, I'll need to search "additional honor" and fix a few things, now. >_<

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:37

Flight of Doves is currently wrong. πŸ˜›

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:38

Indeed.

Alex Jones (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:38

Anyway. Bed. Speak soon!

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 16 May 2022 22:39

Gnight~

saaam (not official), 16 May 2022 22:53

How about requiring players who use Seppun Sensei to play MC Hammer's "U Can't Touch This" at the beginning of every game they use it?

A player, 20 May 2022 18:01

Does every personality that doesn't say nonhuman count as a human? Even the undead ones?

A player, 20 May 2022 18:05

An unrelated question, if brilliant cascade inn targets a personality with 0PH, does the opponent lose 2 honor or 0?

A player, 20 May 2022 18:41
[attachment: unknown.jpeg]
A player, 20 May 2022 18:41

I mean zero is lower than 2, so zero?

kempy_nezumi (not official), 20 May 2022 18:45 · in reply

yes, that's right answer. anyway there are specific undead nonhuman guys like this

[attachment: unknown.png]
kempy_nezumi (not official), 20 May 2022 18:46 · in reply

0

A player, 20 May 2022 18:47

Thanks for the answers! Was trying to play BCI against a deck that had a lot of 0 PH guys and it seemed useless.