Oracle of the Void #l5r

what is the haps

?

Translation: what's up?

https://tenor.com/view/how-you-doing-joey-friends-gif-4982392

Someone in shadowfist was asking me about l5r

Just wondering if anyone currently plays

I still have all of my cards for L5R. I've got decks built for the Jade format (when I started the game) and the Obsidian Hand Legacy format.

Figured this was a good place to say hullo. :)

Welcome

Indeed

Thought this server is deader then a door AIO

Blast from the past using Oracle again earlier. Played Big Deck and forgot my Rings are the EE full bleed ones and had to look them up

I love EE artwork

I was doing the declutter, found freakin' boxes upon boxes, hit the nostalgias, and saw the site improvements and saw a discord link. Thought I'd jump in. :)

lemme know if you dont want anything🤣

Still active... 😉

Ayup, the game went to WotC around Spirit Wars, which was the last set before Jade Arc ended and Gold Edition began.

While I played Gold for a while, I really lost interest then.

Clan Wars (Imperial) and Jade Arc were fun, though.

I am finding things with the jade bug, and just a few with the other bugs.

But most of it is just older. Like... I honestly don't know where I got some of these. I think I must've absorbed other people's collections when they quit.

Guess the fans haven't really rallied because everyone played different rulesets

I only know emperor

Obsidian Hand is generalizex ruleset. It only needs some final touch.

That was a Siege:Clan War box. It contains 4 decks and is a "one guy against 3+ players" kind of game. Fu Leng deck cards werent legal in tournament scene, but other decks were made from Ivory legal cards (except Stronholds).

In players' decks (Rokugani) there are new versions of iconic guys from Clan War as whole set is a kind of card version of Second Day of Thunder. Check Oracle for cards' images.

Thank you. There were arts of characters I knew that I had never seen before.

It has its moments.

Very interested to see where this goes. I had thought about attempting to do something like this myself, I just don't have the time to devote to it properly.

Yeah, time is definitely an issue. I also think that the game, or what's left of it, will continue to fragment further and further, as there's no "leadership" around it from FFG. Obviously they don't care about the CCG part, but they could've put some guard rails in place, or even adopted some of the rulesets/formats "officially" to steer the remaining communities.

L5R card games are dead for them. No way they will invest any $ in them.

Mmhmm.

They really didn't understand the fanbase in the first place, from what I saw of the products they made. A smaller company could've done more with the license, even if it became a 'hidden' card game.

Well, I expect it to be a few months till we get a set ready for testing. And, I shouldn't say a lot about specifics, because at this point they're still pretty mutable. But I want to... so, one of the plans is that we're making a core set, and we're including a significant number of reprints along with a moderate set of new cards with intention to create a new, post-Ivory core, that includes a bunch of fan favorites.

I'd actually love to survey people as to what kinds of things they might like to see, but we need to do some prep work before we're ready to do that.

I don't expect to see a release for quite a while.

Unfortunately, I imagine a fair amount of people don't have much interest in the game around Ivory or the newer formats that changed so much. I could be wrong, though!

Two years ago, I 'tried' to revive the CCG using the same idea but carrying on a rewrite of the Onyx arc. Unfortunately, I ended up doing 90%+ of the work and couldn't continue. I just had too much on my plate.

If you have a solid group around you that will help in all aspects, you'll be just fine.

Yeah.

I suspect we will see a co-op from FFG. Pine Box will take another shot at the license again at some point (my last pipe dream)

if I could have my way entirely, I'd just pretend that Ivory edition never existed. At least from a mechanical standpoint.

What the game really needs is a thriving competitive scene. Either online or in person.

A deck building app for Tabletop Simulator would help with that.

Get people playing again even if it's just for 1 or 2 events year.

The Grand Prix system I think is the way to go for L5R.

SnM is good, but no longer supported.

It could use some QoL updates, but those own't happen.

It was on my TODO list to have Drew transfer the license to me so that I could pay a dev shop to fix/upgrade it, but a bunch of life stuff™ happened and I had to re-allocate both my time and funds elsewhere, so... that's probably dead for the time being.

SnM is easy. That's where I try out my builds.

Noted. It's done on Unity 3? Maybe Unity 4? So quite out of date.

Hunh. That's cool.

And interesting.

I was pondering something like a bundle of several sets together, after they've been trimmed, MRPed, and tweaked/edited for power/costing/etc. So do "Clan Wars Arc" in a box, but instead of 1,200 cards (or whatever) it would be a far more manageable maybe 500.

While you're here a player , lemme inception the idea of purchasing Shadowfist into your head... Current owners are embarrassingly bad at being a company, and just failed a kickstarter

Help uuuus

well, if it works the way we're planning it, it would be print-and-play, possibly with the option to get it printed via drive-thru-cards

but that's if it works like a Project Nisei system

Project Nisei did some really sets so much so I considered them an official extension to the FFG run on Netrunner.

I agree.

But it is still a fan-run setup. If they ever made money on it, they'd probably get sued.

Unfortunately for L5R, most of the players I know are purists. Tried pitching the idea of unofficial cards as tourney prizes. Got shot down bad. Hehehe

Yeah, that. It's why I was ranting about FFG not providing any direction around the old stuff and just ignoring it.

just throw the procedure for everything on a website and run with it.

Yeah, that, too.

But wiping 20 years of history and memories is tricky.

but again... we're still early in the project, everything could change, I don't know. So, ignore me

https://tenor.com/view/venture-bros-ignore-me-gif-21898533

They had to since they were trying to bring in new players. That was understandable.

As far as 90s Nostalgia™ goes, something akin my thought might kinda sorta work, especially as a Drive-Thru-Cards thing. But modern wording templates, fixing various issues, and a more tweaked ruleset, would go a long way.

I really disliked the CCG side of "Whoops, we did a small print run, I guess only those of you with money will win for the next few years!". I get that it's collectible, but really constraining supply makes me leave a game or whatever.

Agreed

Wow this discord is so active. I'm new around here, just picked up some cheap tins. Dunno if I'll ever get to play the game but it's mechanically fascinating

I hope you do get to play I love this game

I feel like I will definitely meet some gen Xer with l5r cards someday

I feel attacked on my friends' behalfs lol

You could just buy an emperor edition Gempukku box and be able to try all 9 clans in a variety of ways

It's cheap

That's true I just got one for myself to add to my atuff

No attacks meant 😁 said with love

I assume the older editions where there were 14 clans are hard to find / expensive?

Depends on when. The game ran for 20 years, so there's... lots of arcs and eras.

If you're finding the mechanics interesting (which I do as well), the further back you go, the more nuance and variety you'll find.

Almost every arc (meaning 2-4 years), the game would simplify some mechanic.

A great example is the Lobbying Rules, which were fairly complex and nuanced, depending on the scenario, for the first maybe 5-6 years of the game.

You could Lobby even if you had the lower Family Honour, you could bow multiple Personalities to add their PH to your FH total, you could give a single gift by discarding a Fate card to count its FV as a temporary bonus to your FH, and so on. You could end up in a "battle" where both you and your opponent are bowed out by the end, just fighting for Favour control.

And the Favour did four things depending on how you wanted to use it.

By the end of the game, I believe it ended up at just two default/restricted/hobbled uses, and you could only Lobby for it when you had more FH than the opponents, and no gifts or additional bowing, etc. Like... Krug Grab Favour! Roar!

Similar mechanical things around nerfing Cavalry into almost uselessness. Or not having gold pooling. The game really tried to make the rules simpler each iteration, but I feel that it lost so much of what made it unique and interesting.

By the end, to me, it looked like a straight up clone of MtG, because it had reduced almost everything to keywords and bracket text to explain it.

And, in that case, MtG did it better, as they already had both Bondage Rats™, and Japanese-themed sets, and with way more consistent rules and card balance.

"by the end"? Imperial - Jade = multiple rulebook uses. Gold - Lotus = Winds with various favour abilities, Samurai - Twenty Festivals (4 editions) = rulebook send home or card mill

One of the best changes in the game. Original cavalry was stupid and in most cases reduced games to only one final battle (if played cavalry vs non cavalry)

I dunno. It added a new dimension to strategy and deck-building. Cav was never a huge problem in our playgroups, it just required to build to prepare for it. I will admin it was difficult for new players, and, well, scrubby players, to deal with.

i'm not talking about complexity, but a standard you lost two province unopposed, maybe catch someone on third. of course there were absent meta cards, but cavalry guys also played some negations - so topdecking was crucial.

Yeah, agreed.

in Engage Cavalry you may risk to build one chagatron to snipe provinces and risk it will be grounded. or just use 2 (one from rulebook and one additional if you play Unicorn) movements for sheningans

It was mostly before then, but still during Jade Arc. If you played mil against mil or honour, you wouldn't really run into it.

If you played control or dishonour, you'd run into it way more.

Yeah... before Refugees existed.

And then they made A Test of Courage because it worked too well, along with other send-home.

They were also, mostly, way overpriced. Like, ridiculously so.

A lot of the "story cards" were kinda sorta unplayable. At least not in anything competitive.

If you were to look at each set, I think maybe 1/3rd of the cards could instantly be cut, and about another 1/3rd (generalizing here), would need some rebalancing or tweaks to make competitive, or also trim further back.

And they very overcompensated some cards on cost to 'defend' those worthless cards. Kolat and Ninja Assassins are way to expensive for the general pace of the game back then without going corrupt, and buy the time you could play one, killing 'one' target was kind of meh unless they had a specific strategy.

But the story is awesome, we found programs to make our own persona and insert them, the general feel was 'good if slow'.

I actually have extras of those. I never got Kachiko Thunder

Some day soon-ish I hope to have the funds to get sets (not play sets, just 1x) of the various Clan Wars and Jade Era non-core sets.

A quick shuffle through the 'Crane Pile' and it looks like the only Hoturi I have is the Thunder, none of the others. But I did find a False Hoturi, which I think need to go in a different grouping because the Egg was Scorpion then Lion, I think.

Essentially, this is what's happening with VTES, however the difference is that the license is currently owned by a company put together by players, while the L5R license is owned by FFG who is (barely) using it, and it's very unlikely they would allow a competing version of the world.

Yeah, they won't, unless either there's massive market changes, or another entity (whether commercial or players) pony up something in the seven figures USD.

Who knows, if I ever win enough with a lotto ticket, I'd do it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So far, last week's winnings of CA$20 are... not quite enough.

Yeah, I saw that. I didn't know the back story, just saw that it was printable on demand, which is great. Alas I never got into VTES as I didn't quite jive with the players at the time in our local scene.

Very cool concept. And you can even have the rarity thing, per se, by only including one of key rares per printing. Wastes paper and whatever, but, still.

I really wish I didn't give away (or sometimes recycle) my playsets of various Rage CCG (non-Rolling Thunder) sets. Those took years to acquire.

I filtered a box in the garage that has Ani-Mayhem, I think some Wyvern, Buffy, I think some Wheel of Time?

I have one of the worst possible OCDs when it comes to CCGs and collectible cards: I really can't stand used/played cards.

Fair. It's an issue with all the old promos, because you simply can't ever find a shrink-wrapped Imperial Herald from, oh, 25 years ago.

:D

Heh. Yeah, that's the one set I'd love to find a "new" one, HoR.

I owned it back in the day, and wish I never got rid of it.

Other than the dust, yeah, it looks pristine.

Dang. Not bad.

Yeah.

I care about it as it was Jade bugged.

Also, ahh, Rezan. He was fun. And Hawke had fun with him.

Hmm. I wonder what a complete/mint HoR set goes for these days.

Hah. I remember that card, from SCC.

Hmm. I think at one point or another I played with maybe half the HoR cards in various decks. Awkwardly, but tried to make them work, because boy was that an expensive $200 or so at the time.

Ahh, Kage Sensei + DPoS + Ninja Stronghold to be able to get Yasuki Kaneko out and protect her.

Man, I played with a lot of jank.

The last tournament at my local I played, I remember the guy I was playing in the final. He was Shadowlands and I was Toturi's Army. He asked how much force I had, and I was like, "I have X." So he assigned his armies, then I responded. "I killed all your armies." "No, because now that they're assigned, Takuan boosts their Force. I destroy this group, your strongest one." He immediately called over the one local judge, and complained I had 'broken the honor rule' because I didn't disclose all the card effects that would change the totals. The judge decided he was right, and I couldn't apply Takuan's bonuses. I called bullcrap, but he said I didn't answer honestly.

Then the smug little Junzo was like, 'I don't have any actions to take.' And I'm like 'cool, I play this terrain and this action. I win.' And he called the judge back over, and the judge said 'If he asked your total Force, you have to disclose any effect, and that includes your hand.' At that point, every other player watching was like 'what the hell', but the judge disqualified me for lying and the guy walked with an Ancestral Sword.

WTF.

Yeah, I so do not miss BS like that.

While I've had experiences like that, I still tried to be a decent human being. There was one Kotei where I let my opponent take back an obvious mistake they made, and that led to them winning the match. It was during the Swiss rounds, but that loss still meant I wouldn't make the cut, from what I recall. But it was the right thing to do, he made an honest mistake.

On the plus side, someone was watching the match and got one of the people giving out sportsmanship prizes to come over, and I walked away with a mon-backed DPoS, which I used for years.

So... worth it!

I am missing some of the story backed strongholds. :|

One of my TODOs is that set of TotV for the inserted story-back Strongholds, and also I think SotE, for the same thing but Jade Arc story-back Strongholds.

Man, some of those SotE story-backed Strongholds are crap.

Sometimes I forget how unbalanced Strongholds were back then. Really hit-and-miss.

Then nonsense like Kyuden Yoritomo with its 'It's a port. That's it. Deal.'

DPoS was broken, but, honestly, most of the boxes out of HE and DJH redefined the power tiers with each release.

Eternal Halls of the Shiba? Ultra-busted. Imperial Palace of Otosan Uchi? Quite busted. Otaku Palaces? Really strong. Monk box? Really strong. Etc.

Well, yes, but it allowed you to buy Silk Works, which could then buy The Hiruma Dojo. It made gold flow much nicer.

Mmhmm.

I'm still angsty that I missed out fully on Emperor, that mini-DPoS Spider box would have been fun to play. Especially with Abandoning the Fortunes being reprinted.

And a bunch of discard effects and ability-copying effects.

I probably would have lost every match, but I would have annoyed the crap out of my opponents.

All were phenomenal strongholds.

Yeah. The Clans were basically getting redefined with their releases.

And then others... kinda sorta sucked.

Kyuden Hitomi was... not that great. Iron Fortress of the Daidoji was also kind of a miss.

Sure, there were viable decks, but not really T1.

Well, that was a lie, because they would just MRP the crap out of everything.

I remember waiting for each new set to see which MRPs would make it in.

That was such a swipe at MtG. I love it.

Out of curiosity, if y'all want to make customs, what program do you use? I'm still using MSE.

Hmm. Never made a custom card, so I can't say!

I'm using Nandeck. It's a bit more work to use, but way more customizable.

For Lion, I liked the Paragon weapons deck that sprung up last Kotei season - clean, simple, efficient

Pretty sure it was after, but can't say for certain

😄

What do you think about gold pooling tweak: you can't equip/recruit more cards this phase than number of stronghold and holdings you bowed?

Regardless of ruleset there are always "useless" cards. With this change you can still use spare gold for abilities. Restriction is for recruit/equip only. With 3 2gp holdings you still can buy 1gc, 2gc and 3gc card same phase. But you cant buy 6 1gc cards anymore. Its a kind of bridge between old and new gold system.

It allows more flexability than original gold system and also stop eg buying 3 clan holdings first turn (mantis).

Light Infantry costs 1. And theres plenty of 4for4 holdings in Ivory.

Idea is to limit early gold snowball in goldpooling.

2nd turn should be about buying 2 holdings or cheap personality with holding. In ivory its often possible to buy 3 holdings or 1-2 holdings and cheap guy.

Yeah, a lot of Followers got cost reduction. And had the HR requirement removed as a game rule.

In Ivory/20F? I think that only those blank pure force ones like light/medium/heavy infantry/cavalry.

I mean costs

reduction

Who would buy Light Infantry for 2GC if there are 2GC followers like

etc

if only Light Infantry would have bigger FV, but in MRP its still 1FV

So for 2GC Light Infantry would be just totally unplayable in Ivory

In L5R you always could play any version of same cards, you just had to follow MRP. So thats why some people played eg Imperial versions of clan holdings or staples like Imperial Sneak Attack even in 2015

Also since Gold when WotC/AEG forced edition tournament legality you just had to play new cards in tournament scene as older just became illegal. Like in nearly any other CCG around that sticked more than 2 years (VtES is just a. unusual exception). You could still play all cards in Open/Legacy but it became less and less popular format through years.

I know that. I wasn't around for when the cost change happened, which is why I asked the question. Like I said, it's unusual for any game to make older cards more playable/inline than it is to just print better cards so they obsolete themselves. I needed the clarity, since I am sorting my cards and they're all older, so the conversation didn't make sense. I know now.

"I didn't know that they went back and changed old cards" - in every base set they reprinted some cards from earlier sets. That was just standard. Some cards were even reprinted in every base set like Sneak Attack or Ambush. Some got erratas/changes to fit current ruleset.

"That one isn't very common, because it doesn't encourage you to buy more" - you are right. That's why also because of so many reprints in base Ivory edition i didn't buy any box for it (just singles). For the first time.

Also to be honest Light Infantry is just weak common card that nobody cares about so such changes to costs mean nothing and wont have any impact on sales

That's all I mean. Like, unless it's errata, the major four at the era just didn't change fundamentals. Like... Twiddle in MtG is grossly underpowered once those charms in Mirage came out, but they didn't change Twiddle to make it more useful in the current environment.

True, it's just the example that brought up the question. Samurai Warriors is a kind of worthless rare card that probably has the same issues.

Hmm, in L5R it was easy to jump in with new edition because rotation worked a bit different than in MtG. There was hard reset every 2 years with only 1-2 dual-bugged epansions. So to if you just decided to go into new block you started like other players - with small cardpool and same knowledge of meta.

Entering in the middle of edition was much harder.

Yeah, the power creep was pretty bad. Good examples.

See, instead of MRPing things like Followers, why not just stop printing the crap ones? It deliberately polluted the card pool with unplayable things.

I dont get you. All examples above proved that still exist wide design space in 2gc range of Followers in rather low power block (Ivory). In such environment they required to make also 1GC/2F blank Follower. They had two ways: create completely new one (name) or just MRP Light Infantry as its still blank and has 2F. 1GC in Ivory works completely different because of gold pooling. Thats like Soul of Personalities in Ivory, they are just sometimes cheaper because of no clan discount. Its not power creep as Ivory wasnt power block for sure.

Also dont forget that Ivory was also focused on draft thats why common slots needed to be filled with various things.

Sure, for draft it makes reasonable sense, kinda like the blank MtG Creatures that just have like 2/2 or 1/2 stats and the like.

I guess to me whenever something just gets cheaper without adjusting its power down, it's power creep.

That One Koku now gets you a 2F Follower with no real drawbacks, beyond the Fate slot and low FV.

Sure but theres no One Koku or similiar in Ivory. But theres lot of 1GC Holdings and theres gold pooling so whatever you bow to produce gold you wont loose this spare gold this phase.

So you can make them enough to be usable, but not what will really carry the deck completely through. Like… playing SWTCG with Tie Fighters. They’re cheap enough to be effective, but Black 3 w/MP is more powerful.