Interesting thank you!
A few questions about Aohama:
Does Aohama reduce the cost of discipline?
If Aohama is in play, and Hoji Ejiro are in play, if I rout, because routs cost is reduced Ejiro can't use his trait?
Answers on: Aohama, Hoji Ejiro
Onyx Lives #rules-questions
Messages from the Onyx Lives #rules-questions Discord channel, copied for Oracle of the Void. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings and the rulebooks may differ.
1. Yes. Discipline (like Invest) adds to the existing cost of the action or gives it one if it initially had none; it is not separate.
2. Tricky answer, sorry, but yes, Ejiro's trait can still trigger off a 0-cost Rout. There is still a "before you pay" trigger for things with a cost, even if the cost has been reduced to 0, because you still have the option to overpay for a cost of "0". However, lacking a cost entirely means there is no option to pay (or overpay) and thus no trigger at all for Ejiro.
[ShE] Kimiono sensei: If the attacker has this sensei and 4 cav units with 10F each, then he assigns two of them to different provinces during the infantry maneuvers of his attack, and the defender only blocks with one unit. Then there is a second cav maneuvers segment. The attacker can assign his two unassigned units to either of the battlefields, but can he 'reassign' the units that were already assigned during the infantry maneuvers segment?
Answers on: Kimiono Sensei
You may only assign once
is correct above. Reason being, assigning is defined as "from home to a battlefield".
Can "The Line Must Be Drawn Here!" Interrupt and negate a Response action?
According to the rules under Action Sequence, [D] Gives all players a chance to play Interrupts to the action. Only be taken in the Interrupt step of a non-Interrupt action.
....
Alright, I think I found where the segment on Interrupting Responses should have gone, but it appears to be an incomplete sentence.
Is this supposed to say you can't interrupt a Response?
[attachment: Screenshot_20260210_211447_Docs.jpg]
(apologizes I couldn't seem to take a screenshot without my volume coming up)
You can't Interrupt a Response action IIRC
Right. But where it's supposed to confirm that, it's just blank
It might be in the cr. The big text file for 20f
Are responses in 20f?
Wait, no, I checked the comprehensive rules. It does not have anything on Responses.
It does say you can't interrupt an interrupt, but it doesn't mention responses.
It makes sense that they'd be treated the same way, but it kinda matters to have a proper answer.
and a player Bottom line is that Interrupts and Responses cannot be Interrupted or Responded to.
However, @Jeremy Sumerlin and @Jeff Williamson , it does appear that clarifying language to that effect was cut off in the Onyx Rules Datasheet? See Andrew's screenshot above and please fix?
Can I pay for a Favor Action with Commanding Favor, and then use the Crane Stronghold to take the favor afterwards, even if I didn't initially have the favor?
[attachment: RtR_157.png] [attachment: ShE_380.png]
Yes
You paid the actions favor cost, and that's what the response is looking for
Not if you discarded the favor
That makes me happy
Do -1F/-1C Poison tokens count as -1F tokens for Jagadis Singh, or are those ONLY specifically -1F tokens (like from Dull Tanto)
They are different tokens in this regard
so poison tokens don't count as -1f tokens for effects like Jagadish
correct
Thank you.
How does this work with invest?
[attachment: image.png]
Invest traits on Personalities trigger when paying for the them. You do not pay for this copy, you cannot Invest it.
The rules say it increases the cost of the card by the invest, not that you have to pay for it... also what if the ivest is 0?
the 20F rules say before it enters play. not before it is recruited or piurchased.
Invest, bottom of pg 81 of 20F CR, "Before paying for a card entering play, a player may permanently increase..." You don't pay, no trigger.
it says entering play
not purchasing or recruiting
I could see the argument be... because the created card has no gold cost, it can't be increased... but the way you are arguing doesn't seem to apply.
also... if the invest cost is 0 it's not increasing at all...
There is no point where you "pay for" or even have any option to "pay for" the Created Personality, therefore there is no "before paying for" trigger for Invest.
ehhhhh... ok... now we are reaching for straws, but ok.
I'll accept that argument lol
so sad that Ikarichi clones can't ride undead horsies...
“Create” and “entering play” are not identical
when something is created it doesn't enter play?
I'm pretty sure that's not true, but it wasn't germane to my point, so I'm not going to expend the energy to concretely refute it right now.
Pretty sure it does, but please don't make me prove it right now.
germane? (Heads to googles for a definition!)
I was responding to Technogashi when I asked that lol
So it’s more of a difference between buying/playing a card vs. spawning one from the aether
I mean, same? 😛
buying/recruiting/playing and "spawning from the aether" all "enter play" though right?
well... not when playing strategies unless they tell you to put them in play... unless they enter play and then are immediately discarded after they are used... hmmmmm
There's a "resolution area" where they go while resolving which is not an in-play area and which I think is kinda dumb and not all that necessary, but that's the technical Strategy answer (if they're not Terrains, Kata, Edicts, etc).
Should this say "lower force than this shugenja" ?
[attachment: image.png]
I think it's implied but for clarity it probably should
It's implicitly compared to the caster, since the Spell doesn't have any Force, and if you did compare to the Spell, the ability would never do anything, compared to the Spell's zero.
Note that even though "performing" is no longer a thing, "casting"/"caster" still is.
Im just saying maybe add "than this shugenja"
would be eaier to players
Is Come One at a Time + Kakita Tatewaki a potential infinite utility?
Only if your opponent can't use the "Go home" action, and only if they have no way to deal with Tatewaki.
Is there a way to negate opponent's movement for the rest of the battle?
Oh right they can run home.
Forgot that section lol
that said its still super powerful combo- it effectively says "you can take this province but you have to win this turn, or you can deny me the honor and I prevent province break"
assuming, of course, that you can't beat Tatewaki in the duel
In ShE rules, if two traits, one from each player, have the same trigger, which trigger happens first?
Dark Ring of Air - Tao of Kokujin vs. The False Shikei... also because Ishiken wants to gloat... Togashi's Daishyo is also in play.
Active player decides.
Thank you
Does this give a token after its own activation?
[attachment: image.png]
nevermind
its after targeting
not after the ability
Is proclaim part of the Recruit action? Or is it separate?
Can an effect that reduces your honor gains from actions reduce honor gains from proclaim?
It's part of the action, Proclaim's honor gains can be modified6
Thanks!
So, if you put Path of Violence into play, you can no longer Proclaim for more than 1?
No, path only reduces by 1
So if you proclaim 3ph,you still get 2
Oh, okay
Are strongholds considered "in play" for cards that target cards in play?
sorry not target
that care about cards in play
Yeeeees.... Although, I am understandably concerned about why you're asking. 😛
The Line must be drawn here can negate effects of cards in play
Indeed. 😛 I can't recall what we were specificaly trying to not negate with that pretty broad wording. Just Rulebook player abilities, I guess? :/
it says "non-dynasty action" as well
so it cant be a dynasty action
Spend your tactical action as you see fit, so far it was intended
Right, I'm just thinking of the rest. Any Fate card or any card in play is most other non-Dynasty actions, so what was the point of further specifying? 😛 Maybe a little boost for non-Wind Favor abilities.
Not sure lol
I thought Strongholds were immune to those types of things?
They're immune to removal. But since... eeeeh... SE, CE, EE... somewhere in there... they've been "cards".
What they are not are "enemy cards" though. I'm sure I'll be corrected, but to my knowledge that was explicitly made to exclude Holdings, Sensei, Strongholds and Winds by being cards in an army
If by "corrected" you mean me saying, "You're correct", then yes. 😉 "Enemy" cards can only be cards in units controlled by the enemy leader.
I meant more along the reason, but I'll take it
I remember it was a big To-Do because of Isawa Tadaka (Exp SCW) because he says "card"
And they don't have any sort of "negation" immunity. You can always negate a Stronghold action, whether it's a card or not, provided the negation is correct and broad enough. You can Fall on Your Knees an in-combat use of Eternal Halls of the Shiba all you like.
If your stronghold is unaligned, do you have to pay the extra 2G in order to play any personality with a legal clan?
I am in a battle as the attacker, I just lost, as the attacker though do I decide the order of yu effects?
There aren't any Unaligned Strongholds in Onyx/Shattered Empire.
My question is more for previous editions, like with The Forgotten Temple
[attachment: The_Forgotten_Temple-card.webp]
Would I have to pay 2 extra gold to recruit something like, a Unicorn personality if I was running this?
Previous editions did not have the 2g tax. I dont think OBH legacy does either, as its mostly Emperor rules
The 2g rule was introduced in Ivory iirc
I think OBH has both out of clan tax and in clan discount.
Correct. Ivory, 20f, Onyx and ShE did not have any unaligned strongholds. (well, Sparrow clan, but that wasnt true Unaligned)
I am in a battle as the attacker, I just lost, as the attacker though do I decide the order of yu effects?
I didn't miss you, I'm looking. ;P
oh I thought I got lost in the shuffle
Didn't Gates of the Second City come out in 20f?
I know that's a draft card, but the rules would still matter for that
That wasn't a build-legal SH. Its banned in any constructed format
20F Draft rules has you pick 2 clans and pretend they are yours, so it's not "unaligned" either, when played.
If you're playing OBH with an unaligned stronghold then, yes, you'll need to pay the out of clan tax on cards from any legal clan. However, I believe there are some factions defined by keywords that aren't clan alignments, such as Ninja, Monk, and Toturi's Army. I'm not sure if they would be considered neutral in that way.
you are correct. I just verified
the quick answer, then, is if you are playing in a format of the game that has the Out of Clan Tax rule, if the personality you Recruit does not have your clan (or is not Unaligned), it has the tax. This is really only relevant to OBH though, for Unaligned Strongholds
Ok, so, assuming all other circumstances are normal (not a Counterattack or such), if it's your turn, you Attack, you lost, all your army's Yu traits trigger at the same time as battle resolution destroys them simultaneously. As the active player (player whose turn it is), you decide the order of resolution of simultaneous triggers.
However, there is a small hierarchy of triggered effects to which you must adhere that don't make them all quite "simultaneous". Any triggered effects that negate, delay, or prevent an effect must resolve first. Then, any triggered effects that substitute new effects for another effect happen. Then, finally, all other triggered effects can occur. And also as the active player, you can choose the order within these "tiers" if there are 2 or more of the same kind at any level. See 20F CR page 45+46, "A" "B" and "C" cases if any of that was unclear.
That.... was confusing for me
and I have no idea what I just read now
lol
Lemee see if I can break down a quick example...
All "Yu" have the same the Rules-dictated trigger, "Before this card is destroyed (by [certain circumstances])" and then, "X effect happens". So the player whose turn it is gets to decide the order they all happen in.
However! If there's a card whose "X effect" is "Negate Y", you have to do all of those first (in an order you choose if there are more than one with such an effect). If there is a card whose "X effect" is "Substitute Y for Z", you have to do all of those next (again, in an order you choose). Finally, you can choose the order of the rest of whatever's left.
ah... ok
I was curious because in a game I was playing I had the terrain that when my personalities and followers are destroyed. they destroy a card without attachments
and matsu chizuki
and with the terrain I could potentially destroy a spell granting force, then chizuki the unit
so I was just curious
I was mostly correct except for your exact use case- specifically from the Obsidian Hand rules:
A player using a Stronghold with no Clan Alignment has no Clan Alignment, and is unaligned. An unaligned player does not have the same Clan Alignment as unaligned Personalities; he/she cannot bring them into play for 2 less gold, but does not need to pay 2 additional gold for personalities with a Clan Alignment.
Keep in mind, this only applies to OBH Legacy
How do once per game abilities work? Is it once per game per card? What happens if the card goes away and comes back?
This is the card causing the confusion
[attachment: printing_5968_1_details.jpg]
That would be once per game per card. So if ypu have 3 copies, you can use it 3 times
and don't forget that cards retain memory in the discard pile - they'd have to go back to your hand first to "forget"
I kinda want an April fools elephant that retains its memory even if it goes to hand
or reshuffled.
Speaking of card memory... lets say I recruit a personality with an invest cost, that personality dies, and an effect then goes to bring them back. The invest has already been paid and the memory remains... so if they come back to life does that invest effect happen again?
It depends on the effect and circumstances. It would probably be easier to explain what happens if you could provide specific card examples.
sure
let me get why I ask
a player a player
The Rule you're asking about and explaining bit by bit is succinctly thus, "a card will 'remember' effects upon it and number of uses of its abilities until it goes both face-down and out of play, at the same time".
The first one is Kitsu Hayako, lets assume I invest (either one) and then I either have Kitsu Aya or Shokansuru in play... Hayako dies in battle lets say... and I go to respond to the death.
[attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png] [attachment: image.png]
Ok. When you Recruit a Personality, you have the option before paying to permanently increase their Gold Cost by the Invest cost to get the Invest effect.
Let's pretend Hayako only has the (2) Invest for simplicity here. You first brought in Hayako normally, Invested her up to 6 and got your created guy. Then, she dies and you Respond to Recruit her again. You can now to choose to permanently increase her 6G cost up to 8GC and get the effect of creating a guy again, or just Recruit her for 6GC and nothing additional happens.
But its a trait right? and its already been paid for
thats why I was asking about memory
because the cost is already been increased
It's a trait triggered by choosing to Invest her when you Recruit. If you don't choose to Invest (again) the trait does not trigger (again).
even though it remembers its already been paid for?
I play and pay for a Kolat Assassin Strategy. An effect on a later turn allows me to play it from my discard. Do I have to pay for it again?
playing FROM discard? I have no clue
but if it returns to hand it doesnt remember it has been paid for
like if I hired killer and put it back in hand of course I have to pay for it again
Sorry. Thought you'd reflexively and correctly say "yes" then I could just say "same principle". 😛
I don't really know of any effect that lets you play a strat from discard
but again if it has been paid for, and its in the discard pile, it remembers its been paid for
I think thats why discipline banishes after its been disciplined
Discipline does. It adds to any existing cost and lets you play a Strat again, but you still have to pay again. But that's getting a bit far afield.
also assuming the kolat strat has a variable cost, if it remembers what you paid beofre then it would likely have to target someone of equal value to work...
That's all completely wrong and not how paying costs work.
and those cards abilities usually indicate that on the ability itself, rather than being traits
Yeah, I went somewhere for what I hoped was a helpful analogy, but it didn't help like I thought, sorry.
all good. I just don't understand why its a trait rather than an ability if you have to pay it again.
Anyway, you have to Invest again. The trigger/cost is choosing to pay/paying again. You don't get it a second time because you already paid once before.
yeah, seems a bit weird that its a trait then
I assumed that was likely going to be your answer, but it just seemed weird to me with card memory
It's a keyworded trait, that's what makes it different than a regular trait
still a trait lol
to me in this scenario it seems like it would be better suited as a response that permanently increases the GC of the card, rather than a trait
The issue you may be having that Marcus is trying to underscore is that a regular triggered trait will have its trigger all spelled out on the card, but an Invest's trigger is in the Rules. They work the same, though.
The keyword makes it check for its trigger first (when Recruiting), then has its effect trigger. The effect is to optionally permanently increase the GC of the card, pay that additional cost, then any additional effects from that
Yes.... I know... thats what I am arguing... the trait says "pay this cost / get this effect" with card memory you have paid the cost... so if it gets recruited again it says "I have paid this cost... so the trait is in effect"
thats my argument
Effectively, to Invest, you first increase the GC permanently compared to what it was before Recruiting. It does not compare it to printed GC.
The false equivalency is "trait is in effect". It's not a continuous trait, it's triggered. Happens once and is done.
To use MtG terminology, it's not a "pay costs" trigger, it's an ETB trigger
then its not a trait
Or "enters" as they updated it a while back
I assure you, triggered traits are a thing that exists.
anyway... pointless arguing, you don't seem to be understanding my logic behind why I asked and my thought process, which seems to be a normal thing.
thank you for the answer.
I understand
Your understanding is that cost has been paid for the trigger on the original Recruit, therefore it should trigger on each Recruit of the same card if Recruited while retaining memory
correct, because as a trait it checks if the payment has occured, which it has.
The part I think you're missing is the conditional GC increase as the first pseudo-step
When you Invest, you start by increasing the GC compared to without the Invest
im not missing it. Its already been paid
Once Invested, GC is increased Permanently
Which makes them immune to Taisen's Sorrow
anyway, again it is irrelevant, I got my answer lol
When you Re-Recruit, the trigger asks you to increase the GC first. It doesn't check for if the cost was paid.
I just don't understand the ruling
like usual
That's the second pseudo-step to Investing. You're skipping the GC increase pseudo-step
I'd actually agree that the card remembers the original invest and cost paid, that's why the GC increase is permanent. It's the first pseudo-step that makes it irrelevant
I would expect that since its a trait, and the trait is simply asking "is this paid for? if yes do the effect" that due to memory that it would do it again
That's what I'm saying. It doesn't ask only if it's paid for
then it should be a response
not a trait
It asks you to increase the cost, then pay for the increase
but now we are just getting into mechanics streamlining, which is irrelevant
More of an Interrupt, really, but that would mean adding the GC increase in card text on each card that has it
Having it a keyword triggered trait streamlines that portion
But not really since I am now confused by it having card memory and being a trait but not understanding that it has been paid for
Because of the GC increase coming first
@Brook Cunningham when you have time please answer
he has?
Bleh... All this stuff is annoying.
Like, I get that L5R does card memory differently than most other games, but this just feels like a bit too much... Or possibly too little?
Like, it doesn't make sense to me that you'd have to increase the cost again for that, and I'd much prefer that instead of an "Invest" cost, it should be an "After you recruit this card" Response.
Like, I get that Investing increases the gold cost of the card, which can be beneficial, but especially in the case of Created cards, should it not be the created card that gets the gold cost rather than the personality?
Are there any Invest abilities that actually persist through getting destroyed?
It doesn't check if the GC has been increased, it looks at current GC, asks you to increase it, then pay the difference for the additional Invest effect
Already did. It's just waaaay up there.
Oh, missed it, am tired lol
https://giphy.com/gifs/bingo-terrellwade-exactlytho-F2tywIO6ee3oVCrgLJ
this is a response... not a trait then
Feel free to read it as such when playing then if that helps understand it
Your opinion that traits shouldn't work like this and it would be better as a Response does not change the facts that "yes they do" and "but it's not".
oh no I will take the rule as macbeth explained it because I am playing in you alls game... I am just offering my feedback as someone with a different mind set and who is also a game designer
I know?
I feel like this might be going into card commentary territory, so I'm gonna post a question about it there.
Your stating those as definitives rather than opinions gives the opposite impression.
I am a very forceful person with my oppinions... doesn't change your ruling 😉
I'm just saying, if you don't understand why as a trait it doesn't work the way you expect, and that the way it's explained you think it should be a Response, if you treat it as such, the end result is the same, the mechanic functions as design intended, and you can continue enjoying this fun game we all love to play
Yeah, apologies, I tried to leave it where it was waaaaay earlier, but when someone continues I will often continue because I gotta try to sway them to the dark side 😉
https://giphy.com/gifs/starwars-movie-star-wars-3oeSAIvP0R9ig1wVW0
I understand, when someone says they don't get something, I have a borderline pathological need to find an explanation that helps them find the light
https://tenor.com/view/jayblixt-jay-skywalker-star-wars-gif-14913360
Yeah... sometimes people just don't agree, and thats ok! lol
The personality that this targets, if it is shadowlands... it contributes to my side... but what happens if I win? does this kill the target even though they are contributing to my side?
[attachment: image.png]
It's still in the other army. If you destroy that army by winning, away it goes.
thaaaaats BRUTAL
Follow up question, you do no control the personality, so if the personality or the cards in their army have effects, the owner gets to use them, right? And what happens if the owner moves the personality home?
yes the owner still controls them
and yes, they can move them home
if they have an action to do so
👍
https://tenor.com/view/charles-boyle-brutal-brooklyn-nine-gif-6047721
https://giphy.com/gifs/smiling-christian-bale-nodding-11kTQgng5gbqgM
Regarding this card, what happens if the spell gets destroyed before turn end? Does it retain the memory that it should remove itself similar to the once per game thing?
[attachment: printing_9835_1_details.png]
Yes.
okay, so the only way to prevent the spell from removing itself would be to return it to your hand/deck before turn end
some hidden information zone
Make it go both face down and out of play, yes; into hand or deck would fulfill that condition.
It was a very interesting spellslinger deck.
Are clan holdings like Iron Mine legal in Onyx or SE? They don't appear on Oracle with those formats selected but maybe they're concidered standard/fixed?
Answers on: Iron Mine
No. They were removed by Design from Onyx back in 2015.
I have a question about Spinning the Web. Is that additional poison tokens counts for ninja actions that targeted the personality TILL Spinning the Web was played or every next ninja action played AFTER Spinning the Web, gives the target additional poison token?
[attachment: printing_12238_1_details.png]
Answers on: Spinning the Web
After only.
Do all tactical abilities require the target be unbowed to use? For instance the line must be drawn here.
Yep.
thought so, thanks
She is supposed to have earth right?
[attachment: image.png]
she doesnt have it on oracle.
Doesn't even have it on the card, unless that's the oracle image
it is
she had it before the icon updates
yes, Brook passed that one onto us and she should have kept it
so assume she is supposed to have it
looks like an icon omission which would have been imported "as is" last year
yeah, the old one had it as a keyword
so we deduced it probably should have it
I've corrected the Oracle entry with a note; we'll get the image out whenever we get a chance
sounds good
btw any Oracle/SNM questions should go in (link) to ensure visibility later
It was a "rules question about the specific character" and whether she should have the earth keyword... because there is a game happening right now that the spells attached to her give her more bonuses if she is earth.
lol
Ok 20F rules has the following:
NAVAL INVASION # Engage: If you are the Attacker, you have the rst opportunity to take a Battle action, which must come from a card in a Naval Personality’s unit. Passing that action does not count toward ending the action round.
and Onyx datasheet has this:
Naval - Engage: Once per Attack phase, the Attacker gets the first Battle action, if it’s from a Naval Personality’s unit.
I have been playing it as 20f rulebook version, but is that inacurate?
The second one doesn't dictate that it must come from the card in the unit, but just an action performed by the unit.
So far I know, the main difference lies in the raids... the player with naval personalities can declare naval once in the raid attack and once in the attack phase
"From" means the same thing "on a card in". Performed is no longer a concept post-Ivory into Onyx.
I didnt think so, but a new player was confused by that
so we wanted to clarify
NP. Yeah, there's no difference except it's now Once Per Attack Phase rather than OPT.
If I use Lies Lies Lies making the opponent discard the favor, does this guy's trait proc?
[attachment: image.png]
Answers on: Lies, Lies, Lies...
Yep. The trait doesn't care who discarded the Favor, only that your action made it happen.
Nice!
[ShE] Trickster's Legacy: Can this card copy a personality with another clan alignment and the Loyal keyword?
Answers on: Trickster's Legacy
No. Since you cannot legally bring it into play (which would happen before the later effect that removes its Clan Alignment), it will fail to enter play and then cease to/never did exist.
[ShE] I have dishonorable Togashi Uki and my opponent (who does not control an earth ring) raids me. Is it correct that he cannot use Sorrow's Debt to take control of Uki because she cannot attack?
Answers on: Togashi Uki, Sorrow's Debt