Rules for 29 June 2004

Your Rules for Tuesday, June 29, 2004

The Order of Things

First, a note from me. When writing email to the list, please use MSDOS / UNIX format text. Specialty characters like "curly quotes" that some word processing programs create COUGH*MSWORD*COUGH aren't going to come across as valid text characters and when I view them via the archive to do my posts, I'm going to have to dig out each and every one and replace it. Alternatively, I could skip the post entirely.

Anyway, on with the show.

My interpretation has always been the following:

1. Announce Action 2. Select Targets for Costs 3. Pay Costs 4. Select Targets for Effect\s 5. Generate Effect\s

The understanding is incorrect. All targeting that is unconditional (not a "may then" or "if ... then" condition) is done during the Targeting Step, before costs are paid. It does not matter whether the target is chosen to fulfill a cost or receive an effect. The Rulebook says ALL of them have to be chosen before the Action is legal.

If multiple effects occur in a specific order, steps 4 and 5 will repeat for each effect.

Nope.

To understand this, I'll call upon our good friend Kuro's Fire

As I've pointed out numerous times, Consecutive Ranged Attacks do not follow the default targeting rules because they have their own special ones from the rulebook. (Diamond Edition Rulebook, page 98)

Elemental Battle: Bow this Shugenja to make a number of consecutive ranged attacks

See? Consecutive Ranged Attacks. They use special rules.

From page 55 of the rulebook, IÕd have to choose all the targets of KuroÕs Fire BEFORE I pay the costs and BEFORE any effects resolve. This leads to a bit of a contradiction with page 90:

'A ranged attack must target a single car opposing the cards making the ranged attack: either a Follower or a Personality without Followers.'

They are supposed to be in contradiction. Consecutive Ranged Attacks have a special rule that overrides the general rules.

A similar problem occurs with Suiteru no Oni. By the current state of the game, here is what happens. After I announce the actions I'm in a bit of a dilemma with step #2.

I have to choose all the targets for the actions (and subsequently, where I'm going to put all of those follower tokens and how many). Here is where a few problems arise.

#1 What targets do I choose first, the targets of the cost or targets of the effect?

All of them at once. There is no conflicting simultaneous effect mumbo-jumbo going on. Pick them all, because that's what the Rulebook says to do.

Logically, I'd have to say to choose the cost target first as that would determine how many tokens I would have available, but the current order of things just says choose targets.

Just pick a legal designation. It doesn't matter whether you say, "I pick Bob, Frank, and Larry to get tokens and Harry to get eaten" or "I pick Harry to get eaten while Bob, Frank, and Larry get tokens." Just pick any legal configuration and run with it.

#2 There is nothing preventing me from targeting cost personality with an effect.

No. There is not. Is that a problem?

#3 What happens when the personality that was used to pay costs is returned to play. At the announcing of the action, the personality WAS a legal target WHEN targets were announced which was BEFORE costs were even paid.

Because of this, Rule #2 was created, which I believe is a based on a misinterpretation of the rulebook. By my interpretation, Rule #1 would be redundant and unnecessary and Rule #2 would be incorrect.

Well, I do not believe that Jeff is misinterpreting the Rulebook in this case. If you'd like to suggest a new timing mechanism for actions, I'd talk to someone on the Design Team in private mail.

{RULES} Marty

If I play flee the darkness in response to Volcanic Fields what happens?

Yes. It targets when it resolves. Delayed Terrains don't play like regular actions in their timing.

Does Flee the Darkness do anything or does VF just resolve again?

It gets Canceled. It does not resolve again.

Egg Question [RULES]

Crab was playing the Crane. Crane player got Kurohito out. Crab Egged Kurohito. Does the Crab player gain access to all the Winds? Because of the wording on Kurohito I can't tell if it is supposed to be an entering play effect, or a continous check type of effect.

Continuous check. The is no "when" trigger, only "while you control ..."

Choosing from variable effects, redirection, and my resulting confusion...

Cut and Pasted from http://l5r.alderac.com/rulings/

If an action gives you an option of which effect to use (e.g., Moto Latomu, Scrutiny's Sweet Sting), you must announce which you intend to use when you announce the action. [ML, 22 June 2004]

Scrutiny's Sweet Sting If redirected, you can attempt to remove any trait allowed (even if the new target Personality has none of them). [ML, 27 May 2004]

[MARTY] The newer ruling overrides the old one. The newer ruling came after some Rules Team discussions.

My opponent plays SSS to remove the Shugenja trait from one of my shugenja, and I redirect with Danjuro.

Therefore SSS will: A) Remove the non-existant Shugenja trait from Danjuro, B) Allow my opponent "to remove any trait", and remove the Samurai trait, C) It can't be redirected, as Danjuro doesn't have the Shugenja trait, or D) Something else.

[MARTY] It will try to remove the Shugenja trait. If Danjuro lacks the trait, the effect will fail.

Part 2: From the DE rulebook, page 74 "You can redirect an action or effect only to something else it could have targeted originally." When is originally determined? At announcement, targeting, start of effects? Does it consider the game state when I announced the action, or the game state now? For example, if I play Kolat Assassin, and my opponent uses plays "Reaction: Lose 2 Chi to redirect a Limited Action." on a 6 Chi peep. When I played KA, he had 6 Chi (not a legal target), but now he has 4 Chi (legal). Is he a legal target for the KA? Maybe just a clean up for aisle Lotus.

[MARTY] That is pretty ambiguous, isn't it?

I clarified with Jeff. It isn't meant to refer to the prior game state, but to the fact that you must abide the original targeting restrictions of the card as it was played - so if you redirect an opponent's Action, you are restricted to redirecting to stuff that same opponent can target, not just stuff - you - can target.

Timing of Air and Water -followup [Part The Second]

Comments Below:

I am now reposting the email that I had previously sent, but this time, I'm actually including the questions that I had meant to ask rather than just assuming that Marty would pluck them from my brain.

Jeff, I know that Marty's been working very hard at this job, but I think that he does need to be punished appropriately for failing to answer questions that I meant to ask but had forgotten to actually put in the email.

[MARTY] AAAAAHHHH!! It stings! It burns! It stings! It burns!

Thank to you, they made me sit by this portal they call a "window" and there is this huge looming ball of burning gasses on the other side trying to irradiate me.

You'll pay for this. ;-)

...anyway, here it is:

Actions are considered successfully cast or successfully performed after both players have passed on reactions after Announcement, Targeting and Paying Costs.

That means that I play the Ring of Water after Announcements, Targeting and Paying Costs of my fourth battle action in a battle, but before the action resolves.

Is this correct?

[MARTY] Yes, though you have to wait for the appropriate Reactions to be played out for each step as well. Only after all players elect to pass on their opportunity to React in the Cost Payment step is that step completed so that the Action is "taken."

Actions can be canceled after they have begun to resolve, though and actions that are canceled are considered to not have been taken, although no costs are refunded and no effects that have already taken place are undone.

Happy Fun Ball was a big example of this in Gold.

Isawa's Last Wish Unique Battle: Destroy an opposing card. The target's controller then destroys any one of your cards.

[MARTY] You forgot the flavor text:

"Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball."

If I'm playing an Asako Towers deck and I blow up one of your personalities and you then try to blow up one of my Samurai or Shugenjs, I can cancel the action and it now never happened - but costs are not refunded (there are no costs here) and effects that have taken place are not undone (your personality is still dead)

Asako Towers: Reaction: When an action targets one of your Shugenja personalities, bow the Towers of the Asako to cancel it. Reaction: When an action targets one of your Samurai, bow one of your Shugenja Personalities to cancel it.

<SNIP>

0) I take three battle actions in one battle 1) Isawa's Last Wish is my fourth Battle action in this battle and I'm holding the Ring of Water. 2) I announce that I'm going to use Isawa's Last Wish to blow up Moto Bob. 3) I choose targets (Moto Bob) 4) I wait for reactions. 5) I pay costs (none). 6) I wait for reactions. My opponent does not react.

[MARTY] Neither do you. Now the Action is considered "taken" and you can play Reactions to that fact, but never again to Cost Payment. That's a hard break in Reaction timing to keep the proverbial Chocolate out of the metaphorical Peanut Butter.

7) I now play the Ring of Water since I just successfully played my fourth battle action (although its effects have not taken place). 8) Effects resolve. Moto Bob dies in a firey bath of arcane, um... fire.

[MARTY] Here I get this picture of them just crushed to death under a pile of rabbits. Go figure.

9) My opponent now chooses Shiba Joe to die. 10) I laugh at him and bow Isawa Frank to cancel the action.

[MARTY] You forgot to admonish him for taunting Happy Fun Ball. That'll be a yellow card for you.

Isawa's Last Wish has now *NOT* been used and the action was never taken. The Ring of Water is already in play and Moto Bob is already dead, so those effects are not reversed.

I have now taken only three battle actions (not four), but I managed to play the Ring of Water in spite of the fact that I have taken only three battle actions this turn.

Is this correct? If so, that bothers me.

[MARTY] That is correct. Yeah, it bothers me a bit too. I believe it is a hold-over from the Jade Era when they were first drawing concrete distinctions between Negating and Cancellation. Cancellation wasn't allowed to "use up" once-per-turn abilities.

The fallout is that you get situations where you can play something triggered on the Nth time something happens, and then erase that Nth time from history with Cancellation.

I understand and respect your concern there. Perhaps Jeff and company may have something up there sleaves regarding this issue when it comes to establishing the Lotus format.

Tossing in some Jeff while I'm at it.

Legality - Danjuro

Jeff just a quick question. "Shiba Danjuro Phoenix Clan Yojimbo * Samurai Soul of Shiba Raigen Reaction: When an action targets one of your Shugenja, bow Danjuro to redirect that action to Danjuro, if legal. If the Shugenja is in an army, Danjuro must be in the same army to take this action."

the part that Danjuro said that he need be legal to redirect to himself are aplied when?

When you want to use his ability.

i read few e-mails about how danjuro can redirect Scrutiny's Sweet Sting, when you try remove a shugenja trait from a shugenja, but sice danjuro are not a shugenja and you need anoyuce the effect before the reaction, Danjuro will be a illegal target, no??

No. Scrutiny's Sweet Sting does not require a Personality with the trait to be removed. It targets "a Personality". Danjuro is a Personality.

Kokujin's Daisho vs. Rhetoric

If I attach Kokujin's Daisho to a Courtier with 3 Chi, can I Rhetoric the 4-honor loss to my opponent using that same Courtier? (Does the +1C bonus occur before the honor loss?)

Kokujin's Daisho must enter play before its trait causes you an honor loss. Consequently, its stat bonuses will also be in effect.

Question

Can you use Summon Earth Kami to create a unit on any player's side during an Ambush?

Yes. You neither assign nor move the created unit, so Ambush does not bother you.

Rules for 26 June 2004 - Decoy

And to make things a little clearer, what happens to the rest of the unit (items, followers...), are they still destroyed ? Decoy says "cancel the destruction", so I assume we speak about the destruction of the personality, but we could also understand "cancel the whole destuction effect".

You can't Cancel effects, only Negate them.

Decoy only Negates the effect of destroying the Personality.

An effect that destroys a unit destroys a personality and all attached cards. If the Personality's destruction is negated this in no way inhibits the effect of destroying all attached cards.

Update from the Rules Team - Rage / Control the Field / etc.

Hello folks,

I'm just passing along some information. Jeff proposed the following, and Rules Team gave it the stamp of approval, so here's a new ruling that will reverse a couple of previous ones, I'm sure:

"Playing" a card is considered "taking an action" in all ways if (and only if) that card is an Action card.

So, if you play a new Action card via Rage or Control the Field, it will count towards the number of actions taken during that phase, and be required to go through the normal "taking an Action" process of announcement, targeting, paying costs, and resolution.

Cost, Cancelling, and CotW

Something has been bugging me about this and I've finally been able to pin it down...

If I use the Castle of the Wasp to prevent a personality from bowing, and that ranged attack is cancelled, why is the not considered used?

The real question is, "Why can you use it at all, since the Personality isn't making a ranged attack by the time you could use the trait to prevent the bowing?"

Basically, it is a hold-over ruling. It is getting cleaned up with some other cancellation revamping coming out soon.

Bowing the personality is a COST for preforming the action. Instead of bowing the personality though, you are using the stronghold to satisify the cost. Since the SH was used to pay the cost, it shouldn't be refunded and should be considered used.

"Once per turn" is never a COST. It isn't something that you need to worry about refunding. It is simply a true / false flag. If the Personality hasn't made the Ranged Attack yet (due to canceling) then he hasn't violated the "one per turn" parameters.

That looks like everything for Tuesday. If I missed your question, please repost it with the flag [RULES] as part of a clear and distinct subject line and I'll get back to you at the first opportunity.