post for 10 June 2002
A rules digest from the L5R CCG rules team, copied from the mailing list archive for Oracle of the Void. The askers' names are left out. Rulings are as they stood on this date; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
We're going through some Internet problems here at AEG, so my posts might be a little spotty. Sorry for the inconvenience.
post for 6 June 2002
i believe the logic behind it is that her trait casts the spell and since traits arent actions its not an action to cast it with the trait. However im confused as to why this was even a trait rather then a reaction, the only conclusion i can come up with is that people didnt want it to be canceled by Fall on your Knees.
I like to avoid spellcasting-related Reactions on Shugenja as a matter of general caution. They make the Ring of Air too easy.
Rules Question-Hoshi Tadao...
Greetings,
Let me begin by quoting the relevant text from Hoshi Tadao:
Elemental Limited: Once per turn, put an Elemental Ring into play from your hand. The Ring does not count towards an Enlightenment Victory. At the beginning of your turn, two turns after this one, shuffle it back into your Fate deck.
Let me follow it with a ruling made by Jeff Alexander at the LA Kotei. If you use Tadao's ability, and then swap the ring with Finding the Harmony, the new ring stays in play permanently.
Here is the situation, with an alternate situation to follow:
Dragon Player uses Tadao to play the Ring of the Void, and then uses Tamori Chieko to play Finding the Harmony, and put the RIng of Water into play, thus ensuring that it will stay in play.
The next turn, The Dragon player legitimately meets the requirements fo rthe Ring of the Void, and plays it.
On the following turn, the final effect of Hoshi Tadao's ability expires, and...what happens? 1) The Ring of the Void gets shuffled back into the fate deck because it is still under Tadao's effect. 2) The Ring of the Void Stays in Play because once it returns to the player's hand, it is no longer in play, and thus not effected by Tadao, even though it was subsequently played by other means.
1)
Alternatively,
What if the player did NOT play the ROV? Would it still be subject to Tadao's ability? would the player have to shuffle it back into his fate deck from his hand???? Or, would it be immune, not being in play?
The physical Ring card put into play by Tadao goes back into your hand when Tadao's effect expires regardless of where it is, unless it's been removed from the game entirely.
Rules Question (JEFF)
Hi Jeff,
I was looking at your post for Friday and I'm a little confused over your ruling on Hunting Tiger & Superior Strategist. Hunting Tiger reads: During any battle while Hunting Tiger is present and unbowed, other players must discard a card from their hand as an additional cost to perform a Battle or Open action. Superior Strategist reads: Battle: Target one of your Personalities with the Tactician trait in this battle who has not used the trait during this battle. Get an Open or Battle Action card from your Fate deck and play the card. This is considered the target's use of the Tactician trait for this battle. Shuffle the deck. In the example presented the player played Superior Strategist to get a Test of Might and you indicated that he only needed to discard one card. The way I read the situation is as follows: Superior Strategist is a battle action meaning that to play it while facing the Hunting Tiger the player must discard a card. Test of Might is also a battle action and I would think that the player would need to discard a second card to play the Test of Might given that Superior Strategist doesn't specifically state that you ignore the costs associated with the action that you fetch (and the Tiger is adding an additional COST to all Battle and Open actions for the battle that it's in).
Playing the retrieved card is not a new and separate action, so it doesn't pick up the extra cost.
On a separate note, is it easier if I send rules questions directly to you or post them to the list?
It's just as easy for me to answer them either way. Putting them on the list
Followup on Hunting Tiger
So we're having a debate about Superior Strategist and Hunting Tiger. If I'm in battle against the Hunting Tiger and use Superior Strategist to get, say Test of Might. Do I have to discard one or two cards?
One.
How about this situation: if someone has 3 Ashigaru Spearman in one unit, and they want to combine to shoot the Hunting Tiger, does the controller have to discard one or three cards?
It's one action. It will cost one card.
The Masked Warmonger
I have a Goblin Warmonger with Goblin Sneaks attached, and the Porcelain Mask of Fu Leng. The last token comes off, and instead of destroying the Warmonger, I destroy the Sneaks. What happens to the mask?
It stays destroyed, both by its own text and that of the Warmonger.
Rules Question
When a Unavoidable Destiny resolves, does a A Matter of Pride kill an SL Player or not?
Not. Shadowlands players do not experience any honor changes whatsoever. That's not the same as negating part of the event.
you are weak question
The target of You Are Weak has to be in the same battle, correct?
It says "opposing". Yes.
Or can you favor your opponent's sword bearer home, then bow someone to kill him?
Once he's home he's no longer opposing anything.
Test of Courage Rules Question [JEFF]
If I can A Test of Courage Tetsuya Sensei, does that mean I can also A Test the following cards: Flattery
No. Flattery ends the battle. Cards that end a battle and then "send units home" aren't sending home units from a battle.
Dark Path of Shadow
Yes, but then it could be done again as the Ninja player's next action.
Rules Question Flee the Darkness/SAtW/Encircled Terrain
Two quick questions,
Can Flee the Darkness cancel Stand Against the Waves (in whole or in part)?
Stand is a Battle action. If it targets one or more of your Personalities, Flee can cancel it.
Can your Flee the Darkness cancel Encircled Terrain when E.T. is played (or resolved, rather) by another player (since his card is creating the targeted condition)?
As of Gold Edition, Flee the Darkness doesn't care who does the targeting. It can cancel an Encircled Terrain that YOU played, even. In any case, it would be played when Encircled Terrain did its targeting, which would be when the terrain resolves, not when it's played.
Arrows From The Woods Question
When used as a Reaction, does Arrows from the Woods target the card being used to generate the reation?
No. It would target the attack itself, really.
Rules question: Arrows from the Woods
Well, I'm not oficial, but this is not an answer to your question. I just think that the gold targeting rilles are causing so many problems, and making so many cards not work as they should, that we should return to the pre-gold targeting rules. At least for reactions.
Point #1: Under the old rules, you had to figure out for yourself both whether something targeted and what it targeted. Under the current rules, only the latter is left to the player to figure out.
Point #2: Under the old rules, the mere existence of certain cards caused other cards to be targeted. If someone asked you, "Does Card X target?", you could not be certain your answer was correct without knowing what every card ever printed did. And even if it was correct, the next set could change it.
Point #3: The old rules gave rise to a number of similar situations, when first introduced, where a card that didn't intuitively feel targeted actually was. This ceased to be a problem once players got used to the rulings.
Questions
Hi, I have a few questions:
- Me and a fellow scorpion are playing against each other (a pity, we could be killing cranes). He begins his turn and reveals Revering the Past. We both have Shiryo no Shoju on the deck. Who gets to attach it first?
I think that him, because the event is his
He, being the active player, can decide which of you resolves that part of the Event first. [rulebook p. 5]
- I have Kwanchai with the Celestial attached in a battle at province A. I'm also attacking to province B. On a battle on province B, the player makes a Iaijutsu Duel. Can I bow Kwanchai and make him take the duel ?
Yes.
If so, does kwanchai "teletransport" to battle in province B ?
No.
What happens with Shosuro Furuyari ? Do I get to cancel the Flattery with a focus 3 card?
No.
- Does Stand against the Waves target the personalities without followers that it bows ?
Only as part of its first effect, which always tries to resolve completely.
- Can Asako Towers hability make any shugenja cancel an action targeting Veteran Samurai attached to a Fenix personality ?
Clan traits don't matter. Your shugenja can bow to cancel an action targeting any of your Veteran Samurai, no matter what the alignment is of the Personality they're attached to.
Brief SotM report and Rules questions
Now the rules questions that came up:
1) Retirement goes off and hits the 2F Ijiasu giving him a -4F permanently to put his force at 0. If he tacticians a 4 focus, does his force become 4 or 2? In other words, as the penalty is permanent, does he remember he's really at -2 for total force purposes?
I could swear I've already answered this at least twice.
Retirement gives a permanent -4F penalty. That gets added in with all other bonuses and penalties to produce a final result. You don't limit yourself to a minimum of 0 until after all your other math is done. This limit does not lessen penalties that would seem to make a Personality's Force drop below 0.
A Retired Ijiasu who Tacticians for 4 has a total Force of 2.
2) Nikushimi is attacking province A and gets hit by In Search of the Future. He then Superior Tactics over to province B. As there's no change in his status (he was attacking and is still attacking with no break in between) I ruled that he doesn't get his force back. Was I right?
Right.
3) The Counterattack versus Rallying Cry question came up again. If the last battle is being resolved, can the Defender play Counterattack before the Attacker can play Rallying Cry? I thought it was ruled as a yes once before, but then in the last major tournament I was in the TO said it got reversed so I ruled the reversal last night. Was I wrong?
Counterattack was MRPed in An Oni's Fury so that it's played after the entire Attack Phase. Rallying Cry will always beat it now. The two no longer conflict.
Dragon Tattoo Meets Rallying Cry
I know this has probailly been asked many a times before, ive even pondered way back when i used to use Mitsu but now i wanna get it straight
Does a person using a dragon become bowed after a battle if a rallying cry is played?
No. Rallying Cry does not straighten cards. It prevents them from bowing.
I mean Dragon Tattoo says bow them after any battle they are in, but rallying cry reads.."prevent all units from bowing as a result of battle"
Dragon Tattoo does NOT say that.
Mitsu used to say that, but in more recent sets was clarified to say he bows as though he were an attacking Personality -- which clarifies the ruling that Rallying Cry will, indeed, stop him from bowing.
Rules Question: O-Ushi Sensei
To Jeff & The Rulz Posse-
Say I'm running O-Ushi Sensei. My personality has 4 Force and 1 Personal Honor. My opponent's personality, with his 3 Personal Honor, challenges my guy to a duel. I accept. Can he use Kakita Technique? Or could I substitute my guy's Force for Personal Honor in this situation?
You could make it check your Force instead, but it's already been played. You are not canceling it, and the action does not have any affect on your Personality, so making yourself an illegal target for it will not stop it from applying to your opponent and letting him strike first.
Naval Invasion Rules Question
I have a question that might make a difference in how I play Mantis decks in the future:
May I break the "May not play terrains until another player takes a battle or open action" rule for naval invasion if not playing a terrain from hand?
No.
The reason I ask is, for instance, Armor of Sun Tao. It has a battle action printed on it that allows you to put into play a terrrain from underneath the armor. Would I be in violation of this rule using this Battle Action?
Yes.
A semi-newbe question and small tourney report.
Matsu Domotai says he "cannot be assigned to or move into a defending army". Does this exclude him from being used with "Plains of Fast Troubles" (... bring the Personality into play waiving all costs and ignoring Honor requirements, as a defending unit in this battle)? The obvious answer is "no, he cannot be brought in using the Plains because he can't be moved into a defending army" but I could see him possibly getting around this because he's not in play yet so maybe his restriction isn't active until he's in play and then it's too late? Am I reaching here? :-)
You are reaching. Traits are active even when cards aren't in play. Domotai can't move into a defending army that way.
Semantics of "Affects the battle"
Agasha Hamanari: Reaction: When a player plays an Action card from his or her hand that targets you, your cards, or your tokens (or, if Hamanari is in a battle, that affects the battle, such as a Terrain), bow Hamanari to cancel the action. [...]
Is "affects the battle" equivalent to "targets the battle"? Specifically, let's say I'm attacking a phoenix army that has Hamanari in it, and I try to play Superior Tactics to move Hitomi Kagetora into the battle. Can Hamanari cancel this, even though it targets none of his cards and does not target the battle?
It does target the battle, actually, but, yes, pretty much anything that satisfies the Rule of Relevance will count as "affecting the battle", and that movement certainly does.
Rules Question
I´m playing the Shadowland Horde and not playing with a Wind, what Happens if I reveal Kanekas Blockade?
The same thing as if you're playing Kosaten Shiro and not playing with a Wind: you read the last sentence on the card, which says "Discard this Event without resolution if you have no Wind."
Three q's
Three questions-
(Emerald) Hida Amoro- What does the phrase "involved in" mean re: a battle. In other words, if Amoro is in a battle and then sent home bowed, would he still be destroyed when his army force was less than double because he was "invlolved"?
The current ruling is "no".
(Gold)Tsuno dude- I can't recall his first name, but the guy with the tactician tokens. Can he only use it one per battle, i.e. gain a token and then use tactician? Or can you use it over and over if your opponenet can't stop you?
There is no limit to the number of times he can use his "gain a token" action in one battle, but he, like any other one Personality, can only take one Tactician action per battle.
(Gold)Does Kyuden Hida's extra card thing work when you attack a follower token instead of a regular follower?
It must come from your hand. [card text]
Three q's
kyuden hida reads "Reaction: Once per turn, after you put a Follower into play from your hand, draw an additional card during your next End Phase." since tokens cannot exist in your hand, they can't come from it. only a real follower will do.
However, Tsudao's Strength is played from your hand and creates a 2F follower token, Wouldn't it be legal then?
No. It's still not a Follower from your hand.
Luring Tactics questions (Jeff)
Luring Tactics reads:
Battle: Move one of your tacticians in this battle and an opposing personality to an adjacent battle. This is considered use of the Tactician trait.
Do you have to move both personalities to the same province?
Yes.
Since the card text says adjacent battle rather than adjacent province, am I correct in assuming that you cannot move either personality to a province where the battle has already been resolved?
You are not correct. When it comes to moving, "battle" and "Defender's Province" are synonymous.
If either the tactician or the opposing personality cannot move for some reason, is the action still playable, with partial effects?
Yes.