post for 29 October 2001
A rules digest from the L5R CCG rules team, copied from the mailing list archive for Oracle of the Void. The askers' names are left out. Rulings are as they stood on this date; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Street to Street Strategies -- Ruling Please?
I'm inclined to disagree with you here Phillipe. Granted, it's not technically an action but the followers must "legally attach" to avoid destruction. Targeting is a fundamental part of determining legality.
The Journal only prevents targeting with Actions, right?
Yes, but reattaching Followers is one of the stated effects of Street to Street, which makes it the target of an action, which means a Personality with the Journal cannot reattach any Followers. Nor can bowed Personalities *controlled by the person who played Street to Street*. Under Gold Edition rules, players *may* attach Followers to their own bowed Personalities due to another player's Street to Street.
I'm pretty sure that attaching Followers ceased to be a targeted Action at exactly the same time that "unbowed Personality" became an independent restriction on attaching Followers. :)
Two points: it did not cease to be a targeted action at that time, and that time was well before Gold Edition anyway -- Gold Edition actually removes that restriction as an independent one. Check the "What's New" section in a GE or APC rulebook.
Love those questions...
Ok, some more questions came up during playtest of a couple of new decks:
1) Does Kakita Rensei's ability prevent someone from using the Golden Obi of the Sun Goddess from saving them from a Duel (do they die 'during' the duel)?
Death happens during resolution, which is still during the duel. Rensei will prohibit the Golden Obi.
2) Can someone play Shosuro Technique (the reaction) when dueling Kakita Rensei? Is a reaction to entering a duel in a duel?
I'm going to say "no" and "yes" to these, respectively.
3) Is Kakita Rensei a man or a women? (Sorry, I just can't tell with those wacky Cranes!)
Probably a man. Rich should know.
4) Judgement of Toshiken states that people can focus once if they have never focused yet in the duel. In what order does this occur? For instance, lets say I challenge someone to a duel, they accept, play Shosuro Technique and strike. I play Judgement of Toshiken. Who has to decide wether they are going to focus first?
The challenged Personality, by Gold Edition card text.
Is it face up or face down (since the focuses have technically already been revealed)?
Face-down, then reveal again after both are made.
The Bane of L5R: Voting
affect the storyline. One of the most direct and effective ways to do that is through player voting.
More so than wins? If so why not vote on everything?
Because we are not going to focus on the one single "best" way to allow players to influence the storyline and throw all the others by the wayside. Every method has its drawbacks.
post for 23 October 2001
Rules technicality. The whole mental problem with Ambush is kinda like the problem with Counterattack. Because there's an attack phase as one of the effects, people have a mental block about the immediacy of the effects. If there were an action that said 'Target one of your Samurai, draw a card, and lose 2 honor.' you'd have to commit Seppuku with your Samurai before you actually get to draw a card. It's the attack phase that makes this whole thing seem to not make sense. Replace it with another effect, and it doesn't seem so bad.
Actually, that's not the problem for me at all. The problem (of the few) I have is that when you use the effects on a card, you read it line by line and do the effects in the order.
That's irrelevant to the combo in question. The "read it line by line" rule applies when there is a timing issue that needs to be resolved. There's no timing issue here since seppuki is not done in response to the loss -- it's done in response to performing or getting targeted by a loss-causing action. And we know Ambush is a loss-causing action because one of its effects is "Lose 5 Honor." WHEN that loss happens doesn't matter.
Point - It's not looking at a possible future event, it's looking at a *certain* future event. There *is* a 5 pt. honor loss coming from Ambush. That's certain. Reactions that would modify that loss don't count as enough of a possibility to change the nature of the action when it gets played.
Point, it's not certain, the action can be cancelled.
Again, irrelevant. By card text, Ambush causes an unconditional honor loss to its player. "Unconditional" doesn't mean "guaranteed", it means "no built-in way around it".
And because of this <censored> ruling, You can commit Seppuku, your opponent can cancel the action and you don't lose any honor and your samuari is dead anyway.
In general, interactions like this have always been possible.
It's a no-action effect (lossing honor from a dishonored personality) and during the resolution of a battle but before you destroy the personality. It's known that an honor loss will occur.
It's known by *you* that an honor loss will occur, because you can see the result of the battle coming. However, the cards don't have any idea of what's going on until the boulders actually start rolling. The death of the Samurai is what generates the loss, and that's the point at which you can start looking at Seppuku as an option for reducing said loss. Not before.
Actually, it's known by the game also. By the mechanic that allows you to use Yu. During resolution, after the final totals of force are calculated, before the personalities are removed to the discard pile. Your personality is dishonored and his death is going to cause you dishonor. It's a known game effect, known game state. And similar to the Gaheris/Block Supply Lines/Winter Warfare ruling.
I would, however, like to point out that nothing happens during battle resolution which is a valid trigger for seppuku's "reaction".
Shosuro Gardens clarification
Well, I guess I could keep arguing, but I recall you're one of the rules gurus who decides these things...so wasted breath, no? That said, then, I would assume that Kolat Assassin is in the same league; it can't legally target someone with chi of 5 or more?
If the chi is now a targeting requirement, and not part of the action in that it is only a targeting restriction.,
You lost me. "Now a targeting requirement, not just a targeting restriction"? What's the difference?
does this mean if we make an untargetable personality (by that action) targetable.. like with shoju sensei. Or with the gold legal scorpian holding from spirit wars.
Neither Shoju Sensei nor Intelligence Agent will eliminate an action's own targeting requirements, just additional restrictions imposed by other cards. They will not let you kill a 10C Personality with Kolat Assassin, for instance.
To: Scott Schultz re: recent discussions
I just checked the GE Rule book, and it explicitly denies virtually every aspect of my argument, right there in the glossary. I didn't believe it at first, so I went back into some old rule books. Spirit Wars-The Same, Honor Bound-the same,Hidden Emperor 1-the same, all the way back to an imperial edition rule book-the same blasted thing.
It is absolutely bizarre that I didn't know this, like I should have.
Don't feel bad. It was a common misconception for a long time. It still is, in fact. I'm honestly boggled you found text in every single old rulebook you checked that clarified it, since I remember looking for it myself and realizing it needed to be added.
A Unit's force is 0 if the personality is bowed, and a bowed follower contributes 0 force to a Unit. This applies at all times, no matter the reason for calculating force. I still don't think it applies to individual cards ( A personality's force is still what it is, but his Unit's force is 0 if he is bowed)
You are correct. Even if the unit is a single, naked Personality card, whether its Force is 0 or X depends on whether the action being played against it refers to the "unit's" Force (like To Do What We Must) or the "Personality's" or "card's" Force (like a ranged attack).
post for 23 October 2001-Jeff
How would this work with Assesention of the Mantis?
Ascention of the Mantis counts total Force in play. That's the sum of total Forces of all units, so bowed cards would hurt the total.
question on bowed personalities again
Still, I seem to remember that the head judge in "To the Last Man" (Hi Paul), upon being pointed out the way the rules are worded, ruled differently than what Jeff did; the reasoning being that "Outmaneuvered by Force" certainly isn't counting an army's Force, and doesn't necessarily count "units'" Force, it wants "total Force", which is something that isn't terribly well defined.
The total Force of a bunch of units is the sum of their total unit Forces. Being bowed affects Outmaneuvered by Force, too.
Retirement Questions
What happens to a spell attached to a Shugenja that gets affected by Retirement? Does it get destroyed when the Shugenja loses that trait or does that not matter?
Likewise, what about items that state "You may only attach this to a Shugenja/Samurai"? i.e. Mantle of the Jade Champion...
General rule: once attached, cards do not get destroyed if their original attachment restrictions stop being met. In the case of Spells, losing the Shugenja trait will prevent the Personality from casting them, though.
Quick question...
Pretty sure I can't, but just to make sure: Can I use the older printing of Yasuki Hachi (Daidoji Hachi) and get the negative 5 honor requirement with the Iron Fortress of the Daidoji?
I'm thinking that the new printing of "Yasuki" Hachi is MRP, so it wouldn't help...but thought I'd ask to confirm it.
Yasuki Hachi is neither an MRP of Daidoji Hachi nor the "Soul of Daidoji Hachi". They are played as printed in all tournament formats.
Out Maneuvered By Force/Wind's Truth Question
If a personality is brought into play at full cost and an apponent Wind's Truth the honor gain, does the personality just brought into play count towards the force totals when using Out Maneuvered By Force?
Yes. By precedent, the honor gain happens distinctly after the Personality enters play.
post for 24 October 2001
Fine, just fine, but.......
Limited: Target one of your Personalities with the Tattooed trait and without a Crane or Snow Crane Tattoo. For the rest of the game, the Personality has a Snow Crane Tattoo and gains the ability "Reaction: Once per turn, after a Focus value is revealed, raise it by 2." A personality with a Snow Crane Tattoo cannot have a Crane Tattoo.
sorry bruddah, that text is straight from leg search..... muhahahaha
Snow Crane Tattoo has been ruled to apply to duels only. Check the archives.
various questions
1) Using the ability on Ctidael of the Hiruma with a personality who has the Yu trait: Even if you win the battle, can you use the Yu trait when that person is destroyed after the battle?
No. Yu is usable only if you lose the battle.
2) Using the Noble Halls of the Akodo with the shugenja/ancestor thing: Can ancestors that only attach to shadowlands personalities or imperial personalities be attached to your shugejna anyway?
No and no. "Imperial" and "Shadowlands" are not "other Clans".
3) Can you reverse-proxy "soul of" peeps? ie. can I use Shinjo Osema (soul of Tashima) in Jade Extended play, since I only have 1 Tashima but I have 2 Osemas?
The Strict Jade and Jade Extended formats are no longer officially supported. You're free to do whatever you want with them. That being said, both Dave and Ray had no problems allowing this.