Rules for November 26th

Hey everyone. I know you're just dying to find out what's going on with Saigorei exp, but first I want to take care of some other stuff.

Martyr's latest printing (OE) reads Reaction: Play this card after the death of your Personality, targeting the card that destroyed him, or her. That card's controller loses 5 Honor. In a battle, the target may be any Personality in the opposing army.

The Accumulated Rulings state: * If killed by an action (other than a duel-causing one), Martyr's target is the card that performed the action. Thus, Martyr cannot be used if that card is immediately discarded (e.g., Kolat Assassin). In the case of a Spell or Item, this is generally the Personality holding that card and not the card itself. [REVERSAL, DW, e-mail, 1/10/98] * May be used if an event killed the Personality. [DW, April 2000]

First of all, why is Kolat Assassin different than The First Scroll is Opened or Occult Murders as far as Martyr is concerned? Both events are discarded immediately after resolution, just as Kolat Assassin is.

The rulebook never says specifically that actions are discarded *after* they resolve, but there's a decent amount of precedent (the Shiba Halls, for example) that says that it works that way. Honestly, I think that the reason that the Archive says that is because nobody ever asked before.

Martyr should be able to target an action card that discards itself after use, because like Events, Actions have to fully resolve before they hit the discard pile.

Second, suppose Sanzo gets shot by Togashi Rinjin, who's wearing Kitsuki Kaagi's Journal (guess why). Can Sanzo point at Hitomi as he yells "Martyr!"? How about if Sanzo Does What He Must to kill Mirumoto 3-for-3, can he Martyr for Hitomi?

No. Specific case overrides general case. It even says in the Archive 'If killed by an action, Martyr's target is the card that performed the action.' That overrides the general case about dying in battle (which is also clearly intended to apply to battle resolution, even if it doesn't specify it very well).

Floating Actions and Kitsuki Kaagi's Journal

Ok Vaughn following your logic, if I try and assign the person with the journal attached to them to attack I would not be able to because I cannot target them.

Not true. Assigning to attack is not an action. If it were, you'd be right...but it's not.

On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:16:03 -0500 Vaughn Derderian <jst1vaughn@HOME.COM> writes: Could the Journal-bearer help blow up the Den? I say no, for the same reason. I agree. 'Floating' actions, like those on the Den, Lessons of Honor, and Soul of Thunder have to target the personality who takes them.

I see this as fairly identical to the use of the Tactician Trait, or Lobbying for the Favor. It is, in much the same way, a "floating action" as it has been defined in many many situations to be an action "from the rulebook", not an action "from the personality". The established ruling is that a journal-bearer (or any other non-targettable unit, this originally came up for Test of Courage vs Tactician) may use the Tactician trait or lobby for the favor, and it seems to me that under the same reasoning, the journal-bearer would be able to issue the Lessons/Soul challenges and the Den destruction. All of the above are Actions taken by a Personality, and are resolved as self-referential actions due to general rules effect, despite being actions that are not printed on the card.

Lobbying for the Favor is definitely *not* a self-referential action. Every personality is not considered to have 'Limited: Bow this personality if they have over 0 personal honor to lobby for the Imperial Favor' printed on them. It's a rulebook action, but it *has* to target, because you get to choose who it effects.

Tactician is different, and doesn't quite fit in with the other 'floating actions'. Instead of comparing it to the Favor, which is a floating action that any of your personalities can perform. compare it to a situation where there are multiple Dens in play. Each one generates a floating action that doesn't target the Den that it blows up. Likewise, each Tactician generates a different floating action, only usable to give that personality a Force bonus.

One of the main reasons I definitely want to stay away from considering these as actions that are sorta printed on the personality is all the problems that come with printed actions and shugenja. Would the Lessons action be considered an innate ability? Can you use Fires of Retribution in response to it? Does it count for Ring of Air? Things really start to get messy at that point, and I think it's just much simpler to make the floating actions (other than Tactician) target their performers.

In general, a floating action that is performable by any personality in play will target those personalities. This includes lobbying for the Favor, Lessons of Honor, Den of Spies, and Soul of Thunder. Using the Tactician trait *still* does not target its user.

Basically, my question is, can Saigorei target a Cavalry personality that does have followers attatched? Yes.

Cards do not break the rules unless they explicitely state that they break the rules. Where on Saigorei does he state that he may ignore followers when choosing a target for his ranged attack? (note: this *is* a ranged attack. Precedent would be O-Ushi being a fear effect.)

Yeah, never mind that whole Saigorei thing. I was confused about the general template for a Ranged Attack that could only target a specific thing, and Saigorei's wording is fairly close to the Crystal/Jade Arrows, so I made a mental leap that just wasn't there.

Saigorei's Ranged Attack still has to follow all normal targeting restrictions.

I thought that the official ruling was that an action that refered to an 'opposing army' could oly be taken if there was one or more units in the opposing army - i.e., the opposing army exists. If there is no opposing army, you can't take the action. So you can't crushing attack an empty province, Mukami can't produce range attacks targeting no-ono to move province, Berserker's can't gain their 2F, and a crab with Dead Eyes cannot use their ability in an empty province.

Not quite. Dead Eyes and Berserkers both generate actions that don't care about the presence of an opposing army for legality. However, they both also have effects that trigger off of the opposing army's force total, and those effects are worded similarly to Crushing Attack. That's the confusion.

BTW - Neither ruling will be changing. Crushing Attack is still not playable vs. an empty army, and Berserkers (and all the others) will not destroy themselves in absolute rage if no one shows up to fight them. More information will be forthcoming later, but for right now just consider it clarification of intent. It's an unfortunate circumstance that both sets of cards have the exact same wording, but those words were meant to mean completely different things in each case.

English. Gotta love it.

Hi all,

Here are a few questions for which I'm not sure of the answer, or for which a friend would like an official word - I'm not good enough for him, which is OK with me.

* Sorrow's Path: destroys cards "immediately before the resolution segment". Does this mean that, if the resolution segment doesn't happen [say, because of an Entrapping Terrain], it doesn't destroy anything? [my belief: yes]

Yes. Unfortunately for me, this came up in a tournament last week, and I wound up losing the game because my Sorrow's Path/Entrapping combo didn't do anything. :(

* If the answer to the previous question is yes, it must mean that terrain resolution happens before; so a terrain can send units home before Sorrow's Path takes effect, right? [making Encircled Terrain a good bet on this Region]

Absolutely. Battle of Quiet Winds is pretty nifty, too.

* Uona Sensei: does it prevent Banish All Shadows from working? Banish says to "draw the top four cards"; I suppose it still works fully, but would like confirmation.

Uona doesn't care about Banish all Shadows. Banish takes four cards off of your deck, one at a time, and that's just fine by Uona.

* The current Accumulated Rulings (under "Battle") state that:

A card that cannot be sent home will bow if affected by something that causes it to be "sent home bowed." [REVERSAL, JA, 2 November 2000]

Does this mean that Winter Warfare no longer serves as the Doom of the Ninja? [in other words, because one needs to ask clear questions: if Winter Warfare is in play, no Yuki no Onna is in play, and an army with less than 10 Chi attacks a Ninja, can the Ninja use the Stronghold action to just bow everything?]

Yes, to both of yuor questions.

* Vaughn's recent reply on the "Dead Eyes vs no opposing army" wasn't clear cut - does the ruling go with "designer's intent", or by the wording? (Crab deck builder wannabe wants to know!)

Designer's intent.

* Yakamo's Smile is played "when" a player destroys his second or later Province this turn. Can it be played by a player whose last Province is being destroyed? And if so, and the Province-destroying player has only one remaining Province, what would happen if he chose not to let the other player gain a Province: a draw, or would he lose before?

You always lose immediately when you lose your last province. Any Reactions to the destruction of that province can't be taken by you, and can't be taken by *anyone* if the game is currently over due to one player winning.

Note that Yakamo's Smile *could* be played by a third player in a multiplayer game, to pretty good effect (especially if the third player is now the only other remaining player in the game, and the only legal remaining target for the 'gain a province' effect).

First on Hantei the 16th.

Is taking control of him an action that targets him? Can I put Kitsuki's Journal on him and keep him for the rest of the game?

Taking control of him doesn't target him. He's the only possible Hantei the 16th you could take control of, so there's no choice.

Then Wasp Sensei.

It says that you may not lobby for the favor. Can you still contest someone from taking the favor if your FH is higher? If so can you bow people and still give a gift as you yourself are not lobbying for the favor or would you simply contest it till your opponent bows enough people and so on to get it?

Lobbying for the favor is *just* bowing someone during your Limited phase etc. There's no such thing as contesting a lobbying attampt, there's just the onus of the lobbying player to become the best possible candidate for the Favor.

If you are a Wasp Sensei player, you cannot bow people to initiate a lobbying attempt. However, you may still bow personalities to speak on behalf of yourself (or another player), and you may still give gifts. A player with lower honor than you lobbying for the Favor still has to get himself above your honor to successfully gain the Favor.

What's the final ruling regarding Seppun sensei and rise? Let's say I play esteemed house with seppun, and I have a shuggenja, gain 2 honor from the stronghold, art, 2 Fantastic (or poorly placed) gardens, for a total 10 honor. Then I attach rise from the ashes and cast it. Are my gains negated by rise? I would say no because rise is altering an honor gain, but I'm not sure. There's a tournament in a few days and a friend of mine, who has no internet access, asked this to me, and he wants to be sure that this works, 'cause the judge is a real <censored>.

Boy, hope I didn't miss the tournament.

Anyways, using Rise from the Ashes will not negate the gains of a Seppun Sensei player that occured earlier in the turn. That counts as a voluntary change to your honor gains. It will still lock out all gains that would have occured later in the turn.

Oh, 2 more

Togashi mitsu is defending, and plays entrapping while he has some fire tokens. Would he bow?

Nope. Mitsu bows as if he were an attacker. Things that would prevent an attacker from bowing (Rallying Cry, an Entrapping Terrain) will also prevent Mitsu from bowing.

What's the final ruling about Noekam and fearsome strength? Does he gain a force bonus equal to the number of undead cards in the unit, or does he gain no bonus?

He gains a Force bonus equal to the number of Undead cards in the unit. Anytime there's a 'number' hidden in some text, and an opposing player could tell you what the number is (i.e., there's no randomness involved), you can reference that number normally.

On Toturi's basic version his stat increase is a reaction, I use a ninja shapeshifter to copy this ability, I dishonor the shapeshifter and then rehonor it, the NSS gains the permanant bonus....

Now at the end of the turn his copied ability wears off, does it "forget" that he's already been rehonored using this copied ability, meaning I can dishonor the rehonor him again the next turn and give him the permanant bonus repeatedly?

Sure. Try the NSS with Uona exp2, too. That's one of my personal fav's.

Odd question concerning the interaction of the "this battle" rule and the "presence and relevance" rule. If I have Shiryo no Ujik-hai on one of my Moto Personalities (Moto A) who is not in the battle, I cannot use him to move a different personality. However, can I move the ancestor's personality into the battle, since the result of the action would be to put the ancestor into the battle, satisfying the "this battle" clause in much the same way that moving into an empty battle satisfies presence?

Sure.

About rise again. (maho kiho reaction:bow one of your shugenja or monk inmediatlly after one of your personalities has been destroyed. Your personality is returned to play, bowed, in your fief.....) it says is returned to play, so though is a reaction the personality goes to the discard pile, does it means that cards attached are lost, or they return with the personality?

Attached cards (and tokens) are lost.

About the event March of the Alliance. (negate all effects from cards not in play....) Are considered the strongholds cards for this event, for if they are not cards you couldnt use his abilities while the march is in effect, except the ninja stroghold that says that can be played when you cant play actions.?

There's errata to that Event. It now prevents actions from cards and Strongholds not in play.

I have a question maybe someone here can help me with

The Hidden Emperor - Event All players have their rightmost Province destroyed. Each player may elect to renounce their ability to declare an attack against a player with fewervProvinces than themselves until the end of the game. Any player who renounces that ability does not have their Province destroyed.

If I play this card and me and my opponent both renounce to save a province. If Moon and Sun comes up and I put The hidden emperor back in, when it resolves we should both just lose a province right? or can you just renounce your ability to attack people with fewer provinces.

You both lose a province automatically. You can't renounce something you don't have.

Hello there,

1) Can your personalities receive the force bonus equal to your chi with White Shore Plains when playing with Akodo Sensei?

Absolutely. White Shore plain doesn't 'use' the Tactician trait, it just checks to make sure that its there.

2) Do Moto Chargers gain +2F when moved due to using: a) Luring Tactics? b) Tactical Maneuvers?

Yes to both.