A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
This came up in a game and I wanted to be sure it was legal. I used Hanabi to gain 4 honor. My opponent reacted with Rhetoric to gain the honor instead. I had a Deeds and Words in play and I used it to reduce the honor gain from Hanabi to 0.
Is this legal? Did the play prevent my opponent from stealing my honor? Thanks in advance.
This came up in a game and I wanted to be sure it was legal. I used Hanabi to gain 4 honor. My opponent reacted with Rhetoric to gain the honor instead. I had a Deeds and Words in play and I used it to reduce the honor gain from Hanabi to 0.
Is this legal? Did the play prevent my opponent from stealing my honor? Thanks in advance.
Nope, not legal.
Rhetoric's trigger is right before the gain or loss occurs, during the effects. However, Deeds and Words' trigger is well before that, "Before the resolution of an action". So, when the other player plays Rhetoric, the time has passed when you could've reacted with Deeds and Words and it's too late (though maybe you were playing an older copy of D&W, where the trigger was the same as Rhetoric's, making your cheatery slightly more forgiveable ).
Greetings From here http://www.l5r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=99716&sid=5fd879b628ba2ee73fd0f5a87d91a0ed This, however, http://www.l5r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=96689&p=1278503&hilit=rhetoric&sid=3f94f8f5aab796b73ec368cfd57ae9ee&sid=5fd879b628ba2ee73fd0f5a87d91a0ed#p1278503 says that, and i copy and paste quote: " Rhetoric does not create a new gain or loss. However, it does close the trigger of when Player A is gaining (or losing) honor, and sets up a new trigger of when Player B is gaining (or losing) honor, which can then be reacted to as normal. The honor gain or loss is still from the same source, there is simply a different player gaining or losing it." Doesn't it follow that if i can rhetoric a rhetoric that i can use deeds not words to reduce the stolen gain to zero since there is a new trigger for it.. Player B is gaining.. I am not reducing player A's gain (mine). Thanks.
Doesn't it follow that if i can rhetoric a rhetoric that i can use deeds not words to reduce the stolen gain to zero since there is a new trigger for it...
No, it does not.
There is a new instance of the SAME trigger for Rhetoric. But Rhetoric and Deeds and Words have DIFFERENT triggers. There will be no new instance of D&W's trigger (at least, not one that would matter; you could react to before Rhetoric's resolution with D&W, but Rhetoric's effects are not causing the gain or loss, so it would do nothing); the time point of "Before [the] resolution of [the action whose effects are causing the gain or loss]" has already passed.