Multiple experienced versions of the same Celestial in WoH

L5R CCG Rules board, 16 July 2012 to 17 July 2012

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 16 July 2012

Ok, so I'm playing a WoH or Legacy game and running Togashi's Guidance and Togashi's Guidance Exp. Assuming that I have Togashi's Guidance (the non-exp version) in play, and Togashi's Guidance Exp comes into play, my understanding is that the second Celestial does not enter play, and the first Celestial is not discarded, since they are Unique cards with the same title (or specifically because the one that wants to enter play is a Unique card with the same title as a card in play).

Shrine to the Heavens doesn't seem to make a difference... either way, the second Celestial won't enter play because it's Unique and there is a card by the same name already in play (thus, steps C and D of celestial resolution never happen).

So my question is:

If Togashi's guidance (non-exp) leaves play (presumably because I use the Reaction on it), what happens to the other guidance? There doesn't seem to be any mechanic to re-initiate Celestial Resolution outside of having a THIRD celestial in the deck to re-trigger it. It seems like once the second Celestial pops up and fails to enter play, it's just stuck there in my provinces until I discard it at the end of a Dynasty phase... I can't do anything with it. Is that right?

Togashi's Guidance

Togashi's Guidance Experienced

Shrine to the Heavens, for completeness

And for those playing along at home:

Playing CelestialsIf any Celestial cards are revealed in a player's province at any time, after any triggers to the card(s) being revealed take place, the player follows this sequence for any Celestials still in the province:

A. The Celestial cards enter a specially created entering-play area. B. Any restrictions on their entering play are checked. If these conditions are not met for any of these Celestial cards, they return to the province they came from. If these conditions are not met for all of them, Steps C and D do not happen. C. The player discards any Celestials he or she controls. D. The Celestial cards enter play from the entering-play area. E. The entering-play area ceases to exist.

Jon Palmer (rules official), 17 July 2012

Ok, so I'm playing a WoH or Legacy game and running Togashi's Guidance and Togashi's Guidance Exp. Assuming that I have Togashi's Guidance (the non-exp version) in play, and Togashi's Guidance Exp comes into play, my understanding is that the second Celestial does not enter play, and the first Celestial is not discarded, since they are Unique cards with the same title (or specifically because the one that wants to enter play is a Unique card with the same title as a card in play).

Shrine to the Heavens doesn't seem to make a difference... either way, the second Celestial won't enter play because it's Unique and there is a card by the same name already in play (thus, steps C and D of celestial resolution never happen).

So my question is:

If Togashi's guidance (non-exp) leaves play (presumably because I use the Reaction on it), what happens to the other guidance? There doesn't seem to be any mechanic to re-initiate Celestial Resolution outside of having a THIRD celestial in the deck to re-trigger it. It seems like once the second Celestial pops up and fails to enter play, it's just stuck there in my provinces until I discard it at the end of a Dynasty phase... I can't do anything with it. Is that right?

Togashi's Guidance

Togashi's Guidance Experienced

Shrine to the Heavens, for completeness

And for those playing along at home:

Correct, and you're looking in exactly the right place. Celestials only try to enter play when they're revealed; if you had an effect to turn the province facedown, then discarded the original Celestial from play, the Celestial would enter play when revealed again.